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  1. #1001
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I know the criteria is written on paper, but you can't ignore that history made it seem that the USFS has always gone with the top finishers and you can't really think that it was well-known beforehand that the USFS would do something like this unlike in Japan when it has happened often. I think there's something to be said about practice. At least in the law, state action and practice plays a big role despite what a regulation might say on paper.
    I think in reality Wagner being named to the team (whether it was Mirai or Polina who was bumped) is a victory for the USFSA's new stated protocals which have been in place for years. There are past instances they probably should have used them- Abbott in 2011, Weir in 2009 (now that I know they had a 3rd man which I didnt know when I was mocking the suggestion previously), perhaps Inoue & Baldwin or even Brubaker in 2010. However sometimes it is like giving out your first 6.0 as a judge, losing your virginity in a sense. So they held off on it for years, bypassing several good opportunities to use it in the process. The USFSA had these new more flexible policies in place for awhile now though, and using it was long overdue. It is actually a good thing such an extreme case came along they had to use it. Of course some whiners will cry and pout, some of them over the top Nagasu ubers, and others who want the USFSA to live with their outdated old procedures forever; but the fact is the USFSA has finally used their years ago newly implemented "not only Nationals counts" policy, and now that they have broken the ice it will make it easier to use it when appropriate in the future.

  2. #1002
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    I think they should be more explicit about how and when they implement it (as opposed to just saying they consider prior competitions) and use it consistently throughout all the disciplines, and explain their decision. I think if they're going to do that, they need to make it so that it's not seen as unseemly as it is now, and it will be for the benefit of the competitors. The point of IJS was to enlighten competitors of things they needed to work on in order to score better. I don't see why we shouldn't advocate for something similar for selection criteria as well. I am not advocating for one system or the other, but I do want a lot more transparency and have explanations given in order to ease the feeling of unfairness or injustice.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  3. #1003
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    They probably should make it more explicit, but where the confusion is with anyone in this case (other than the USFSA not doing something like this before now, which is more their own fault than anything else) is the only thing that confuses me. Wagner's results in the last 2-3 years are not a bit better than Nagasu or newcomer Edmunds. They are a stratosphere better in that span. It isnt like she was 10th at Nationals, she was 4th. Why this would be a case extreme enough to justify an aleration of Nationals results seems very obvious to me, and not something that should need to be spelt out in words IMO.

  4. #1004
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorianhotel View Post
    They probably should make it more explicit, but where the confusion is with anyone in this case (other than the USFSA not doing something like this before now, which is more their own fault than anything else) is the only thing that confuses me. Wagner's results in the last 2-3 years are not a bit better than Nagasu or newcomer Edmunds. They are a stratosphere better in that span. It isnt like she was 10th at Nationals, she was 4th. Why this would be a case extreme enough to justify an aleration of Nationals results seems very obvious to me, and not something that should need to be spelt out in words IMO.
    I think the underlying disagreement may stem from whether people really believe Wagner's results were deserving of this newly invoked consideration since there may have been stronger cases in the past where the USFS could have invoked this consideration but did not. What makes the disagreement even more wild is that they chose not to invoke it in another discipline at the same Nationals…and then chose to invoke it for one competition but not another, which is incredibly odd. Personally, my biggest issue is this sort of sneak attack of invocation that overturns history without adequate warning (lack of practice to set a strong precedent) and the inconsistency in which it was invoked within the same competition.

    Even if this system is the best one in most people's minds, it should still be practiced consistently and fairly.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  5. #1005
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I think the underlying disagreement may stem from whether people really believe Wagner's results were deserving of this newly invoked consideration since there may have been stronger cases in the past where the USFS could have invoked this consideration but did not.
    Yet the examples people have given thus far I dont believe are stronger cases. Abbott in 2011 certainly isnt based on his skating that season. Weir in 2009 isnt since there were 2 other men (Abbott and Lysacek) both atleast as strong as him to begin with (vs Wagner who was by far the best U.S lady, Gold included, since fall of 2010) who already had securely made the team already, and the only possability left was someone who finished 2nd to his 5th at Nationals. I still would have had Abbott in 2011 and Weir in 2009 making the team instead of Miner and Mroz myself. Still I have yet to here someone give an example of a better case since the new selection procedures that talked about considering things besides Nationals came into play. This is the best one so far, and the USFSA finally got the guts to do the right thing they should have done on a few occasions past.

    BTW we are now talking about times before the new selection procedures started, so it isnt even a fair comparision anyway, but for those who chant things like "Ashley doesnt even have a World medal" can you think of an instance a reigning World medalist was ever left off a U.S World or Olympic team anyway? So this whole there are much stronger cases than Ashley I dont see, let alone in recent times.

  6. #1006
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    There's a new U.S. Ladies thread here.

  7. #1007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    It would seem to me that the selection procedure means that a skater has to peak multiple times throughout the season: first at GP events (which seems to be when Ashley peaks), followed by Nationals and then (hopefully) Worlds and Olympics. The problem with this is perhaps most evidenced in Ashley's performances over the past couple of seasons, wherein it seems that her level has dropped as the season has progressed.
    Consistency across the season should be rewarded. I mean, where was Mroz internationally since 2009 Nationals? And Miner or Zawadzki for that matter? Miner and Zawadzki kept skating solidly enough at Nationals in the past 3 seasons but their international results don't nearly shine as much. Classic example of skaters pacing to peak at Nationals and nothing else. They had nothing to show at the beginning of the season and nothing else left to show at Worlds. This can't really be good for USFS in selecting their world teams.

    In 2012, Wagner had a relatively slow GP season but built at Nationals, 4CCs, Worlds and WTT.
    In 2013, Wagner had a strong GP season but backed down at GPF and Nationals but somewhat rebounded at Worlds and WTT.
    In 2014 so far, Wagner had a strong GP season including GPF (one fall, but got her 3/3s and medaled) but backed down at Nationals. Her season could only get better from here if you would like to go by trend.

  8. #1008
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    Although I don't think I disagree with you (as long as it was executed fairly as discussed earlier), I do think you can always find many examples of skaters who have done well most of the season only to underperform at Worlds, and you can find examples of skaters having a slow start only to do well at the bigger competitions.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

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