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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    Even if Polina places between number 4-6 at Nationals, she's going to Junior Worlds, NOT to 4CCs.
    Are the events conflicting with each other?

    Junior Worlds would definitely be higher profile.

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Camel View Post
    Oh darn, I did not know that. Like I said 25 by the time she gets to senior GP. USFSA needs to make some changes. We seem to do everything backwards.
    I don't agree. Just because they have better girls to use for their SGP spots doesn't mean they do stuff backwards. They have depth in competitive older skaters that Russia does not have. Their mistake was sending Caroline Zhang for a grand prix BUT word in the summer was the Caroline was doing fantastic and would be turning heads come fall. Clearly an injury or personal struggle has prevented that from happening, but I think there was a good reason why she got the spot. She was probably skating like a contender when they monitored her.

    Of all the other girls who got grand prix spots, you're thinking they didn't deserve them? And that ms. Edmunds or another Junior instead deserved one of those spots? Ashley got 2 and deserved them, Gracie got 2 and deserved them, Mirai got 2 and deserved them (look at her in Russia, what happens if we weren't afforded the opportunity to see that?), Christina Gao certainly deserved her two spots even though her second outing was mysteriously far below her average, Samantha Cesario is way better than any of the Juniors competing at this moment...she got 2 spots and earned them, and Hicks got one spot.

    So what did they do wrong? Should we have given everyone but Ashley only one spot, and flooded the SGP with Juniors like Edmunds, Chen, Wang? Not as though qualifying for the Junior Grand Prix Final would do anything to build a name for them......might as well have stuck them in Senior instead where they would finish in 8th place at their lone assignment. SMART

    ETA: not a post against the person I quoted, this post is to all those I've seen upstream talking about how the US needs to follow Russia and stick girls onto the Senior Grand Prix as soon as they can. The two countries have a different stream of skaters and should not be compared. Russia has wonderbabies who keep coming in and knocking each other down for the top, on the other hand the US has good juniors coming up but they also have depth in the Senior ranks amongst true Senior skaters.
    Last edited by cbd1235; 12-10-2013 at 07:41 PM.

  3. #303

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    Is USFSA really helping their skaters, and by extension, the country's skating program, with the current set up? There are several aspects that are troubling.

    No one is happy with how JGP selection works, or so it would seem. At the least, there are too many skaters for not enough spots. What's the solution? Five or so early August competitions around the country where juniors can earn a recent ranking with byes for podium finishers from Nationals, previous season's JGP?

    Then there is the issue of ISP monitoring. Zhang turning up at SA with maybe 2 types of triples has caused reasonable people to question the whole ISP monitoring efforts. What happens at Champs Camp? Does it really serve the skaters' needs? What exactly is gained by letting skaters "hide" their programs from the public, unlike other countries? I'm guessing what's gained is hiding off peak performances by their number one skaters in each discipline. So fine, let the US #1 from each discipline skate privately and let all the up and comers or come backers have an actual competition or public test skate.

    Then there is the qualification process to Nationals. Some skaters only do what they have to do in their region or section to get to nationals. The way things happened this year, there weren't too many people left out of nationals, going by how people scored at Sectionals.

    However, what would have happened if a qualifying score was set in the summer, and reviewed before sectionals based on the number of qualifiers to date?

    What is communicated to skaters when it becomes obvious that better skaters might be left home based on being from a strong region or strong section? You don't need to be the best, you just need to play the game and work the system? Is this conducive to producing skaters who are capable of bringing their best when they get an opportunity to compete internationally?

    Two obvious barriers to changing the way things are appear to be 1) inconsistent calling and 2) inconsistent application of PCS. I hope the USFSA sees what a huge opportunity exists to become a leader in the training and education of callers as well as setting the standard in application of PCS marks. Ranking skaters across many competitions on TES only would not capture the best skaters, imo. You want skaters who maybe weren't "on" with the jumps but show truly superior skating skills, composition, P/E, etc to be kept in the mix.
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  4. #304

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    Are the events conflicting with each other?

    Junior Worlds would definitely be higher profile.
    I'm pretty sure USFS will want to spread the assignment wealth and not give someone both 4CCs and junior worlds, which to me is fair and smart. Gao, Nagasu, and Cesario have all aged out of juniors and there's also Zawadzki and Cain who would probably more likely be considered for 4CCs.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie View Post
    I'm pretty sure USFS will want to spread the assignment wealth and not give someone both 4CCs and junior worlds, which to me is fair and smart. Gao, Nagasu, and Cesario have all aged out of juniors and there's also Zawadzki and Cain who would probably more likely be considered for 4CCs.
    +1. Also, USFSA is not an organization who would give a relatively big senior competition assignment to a skater who's only skated juniors when there are 7-8 other seniors who could go to 4CCs and can't go to Junior Worlds.

  6. #306
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    Cbd,
    USFs doesnt control what other feds invite for their gps, but US hasnt done that great with their jgps at times, letting unready skaters go to assignments, leaving worthy skaters at home. They also could do better with Skate America host picks.
    Frim earlier discussions Zhang was assigned to SA before summer monitoring, and afaik Zhang didnt do a major summer comp. How she did in champs camp I have no idea, but US has hardly ever pulled an assignment once it is handed out even if the skater proves unready later. On top of that, there are things US can do to help skaters get more chances at pbs and stuff, helping them land gps or get qualifying scores. Eg Chiera could use a qualifying score and she isnt getting an assignment to get it, so if she places too 6 she wil, still end up with no assignments this season most likely

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlai View Post
    Cbd,
    USFs doesnt control what other feds invite for their gps, but US hasnt done that great with their jgps at times, letting unready skaters go to assignments, leaving worthy skaters at home. They also could do better with Skate America host picks.
    Frim earlier discussions Zhang was assigned to SA before summer monitoring, and afaik Zhang didnt do a major summer comp. How she did in champs camp I have no idea, but US has hardly ever pulled an assignment once it is handed out even if the skater proves unready later. On top of that, there are things US can do to help skaters get more chances at pbs and stuff, helping them land gps or get qualifying scores. Eg Chiera could use a qualifying score and she isnt getting an assignment to get it, so if she places too 6 she wil, still end up with no assignments this season most likely
    I have thought that overall the US has done decent with their JGP spots. They have so much depth, it's really tough to narrow it down. Problem is that they have to give all their top JGP ladies two assignments in order for them to have the chance to go to the final, which eats up spots. I think they do their best considering. I think the US likes to pick skaters who have been building over a couple years as opposed to flash in the pan talents. When Gracie Gold went on the JGP she only got one assignment (unfortunately the last calendar assignment). She was a force around that time, but if you flash back by one year she wasn't nearly so established as a top Junior. One could criticize the federation for not giving GG two spots, but how would they know she would bring it. It's so easy to look at assignments with retrospective clarity and point fingers where assignments could have been better chosen, but no one has a crystal ball.

    Are there any countries who assign spots then replace the skater with another skater without the decision being from the original skater who had the spot? This is unheard of I believe (I encourage someone to show examples if they know of some, because I'm curious). Word when Caroline was assigned her spot was that she was on a roll and ready to make a real comeback to form. It made sense to give her a spot at the time, problem is that I don't know if they can go back on that word if they find out that a month later she's tanking. Maybe they need to wait longer before they announce risky assignments?

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbd1235 View Post
    Problem is that they have to give all their top JGP ladies two assignments in order for them to have the chance to go to the final, which eats up spots.
    They only did that for ladies who have a shot at the final, which is good. The issue is that almost every season, some skaters have not shown comp ready and yet they get assigned; and the squeeze in GP slots, plus lack of good strategizing from the fed, have made more skaters stay in jrs longer and longer, leaving the talented upcomers wait in line for a season (Edmunds comes to mind for that one. Because she didn't have a qualifying score, she ended up with no jr world opportunities last year. Not that I say she should have gone no question, but the opportunity for her to earn a qualifying score for jr worlds should have been there last season. Skaters who could do seniors end up staying jrs because sr Bs dont earn you a Seasons Best. So now you have girls who stay jrs longer and longer and then real jrs wait in line.

    I think the US likes to pick skaters who have been building over a couple years as opposed to flash in the pan talents. When Gracie Gold went on the JGP she only got one assignment (unfortunately the last calendar assignment). She was a force around that time, but if you flash back by one year she wasn't nearly so established as a top Junior. One could criticize the federation for not giving GG two spots, but how would they know she would bring it. It's so easy to look at assignments with retrospective clarity and point fingers where assignments could have been better chosen, but no one has a crystal ball.
    IMHO this only worked under 6.0. Now you can go from doing good to tanking just by underrotating by a teeny bit or having a tougher caller. Other than the Russian wonderbabies and a handful of skaters, no one is that consistent. And girls' bodies change so much; by the time they finish waiting in line very often it's time for them to go to college. I think that if girls who skate well get a year of jgp and then move up to seniors at, say, 16, then they have a couple of years to compete in seniors before deciding between college vs. skating. Ideally, that is. For instance, by the time Wang moves up, she is pretty much close to or planning on college. Makes it tougher that way.

    BTW, there were complaints about Gold not getting jgp over other skaters even before that season started, so this wasn't based on after-the-fact assessments. In fact, there are complaints about US ladies jgp assignments almost every year because some lady who wasn't as ready got to go, and summer comps meant little. This year USFS has shown a little improvement -- Keiser was pulled from her assignment. Hopefully this improvement carries over to Sr GP soon.

    Are there any countries who assign spots then replace the skater with another skater without the decision being from the original skater who had the spot?
    I don't know about assigning spots, but Russia is known to assign late and based on the most recent data (e.g. recent comps, test skates, etc.) or have skaters' assignments confirmed through recent results. US assigns rather early and doesn't change their assignments.

    Word when Caroline was assigned her spot was that she was on a roll and ready to make a real comeback to form. It made sense to give her a spot at the time, problem is that I don't know if they can go back on that word if they find out that a month later she's tanking. Maybe they need to wait longer before they announce risky assignments?
    First off, Caroline has not done any major summer comps (eg liberty open, Boston Open, etc), so how do you know she did well? No one knows how she did at Champs Camp either. There was one post about how she did during summer, but other than that... I think she was the only top sr lady skater without a known summer competition score? (other than Wagner who was a nat champ)

    Yes, very often assignments were handed out way too soon, IMHO
    Last edited by jlai; 12-11-2013 at 03:18 AM.

  9. #309
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    I was one of the people in the background watching Skate Detroit that year and thinking god they are silly if they don't give Gracie Gold two jgp spots. I know the assignments aren't perfect, but my word it's tough to fit all the girls in where they belong, there are just so many skaters. But Caroline getting an assignment was a big mistake, yes.

    There are skaters who are on the JGP series for a couple years and the US doesn't push them out, but they aren't ready for Seniors. But if they go back onto the JGP then they will do fairly well. What's the answer? I think it's a tough one :/.

    I think of Vanessa Lam as an example of a skater who was on the JGP for quite a long time, and was doing fairly well at it. But she wasn't ready for Seniors, could they have pushed her up to SGP? I don't personally think so. And would it be right for them to just give her no assignments one fall when she could be on the JGP, or stick her to one senior B? I suppose the US could use Senior B's more, but they're just not as prestigious as the JGP or SGP.

    I don't have any point to make here other than it being a really tough balancing act to get everyone to where they belong as far as assignments are concerned. No matter what, skaters are going to fall through the cracks when there is as much depth as the US ladies show. I'm happy I'm not on some sort of committee that decides these things.

  10. #310

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    Grand Prix (8 skaters/14 slots): Wagner, Gold, Cesario, Nagasu, Gao, Zawadzki, Hicks (1), Zhang (1)
    Senior B + at least 1 GP (6 skaters/7 slots): Gold, Cesario, Nagasu, Gao, Zawadzki, Hicks (she got 2 Senior B comps)
    Senior B only (4): Cain, Lam, Baga, Flatt
    JGP (9 skaters/14 slots): Edmunds (2), Chen (2), Wang (2), Bell (2), Long (2), Glenn (1; won bronze in debut), Pierce (1), Siraj (1), Miller (1)

    Total ladies sent out internationally this fall: 21
    Last edited by Sylvia; 12-11-2013 at 03:46 AM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  11. #311
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    Thx, Sylvia. I do think USFS has made some small improvements regarding JGP and Sr B assignments this year, but there's still work to do, but that's mho.

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    Why wasn't Sam out earlier on the Senior Circuit? I agree part of the problem is lack of spots, but USFS 3 years ago should have been thinking: who are the 7-8 ladies who could go to Sochi and award spots accordingly? Of course, hindsight is 20/20 but they probably banked on Caroline too much; also Rachel - I guess they did not know for sure whether Rachel would continue but it is quite likely that she would not, having gotten into Stanford. They probably also thought Alissa would be in the mix. So that leaves probably half of the ladies they thought were Sochi hopefuls no longer being viable candidates now.


    What happened to Siraj? I never hear her name mentioned though I recall she skated decent at nationals last year akin to Sam

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    Samantha wasn't out on the Senior Circuit earlier because the USFSA really only controls one GP spot (Skate America host pick) per season. She didn't place well enough at Nationals to go to Worlds or 4CC's so she had no chance to get on the SB list so therefore no SGP assignment. The best place to get ranking points and the possibility of a SGP is on the JGP and Jr. Worlds. Who should Samantha have bumped for a spot at Worlds or 4CC's?
    A good rant is cathartic. Ranting is what keeps me sane. They always come from a different place. Take the prime minister, for example. Sometimes when I rant about him, I am angry; other times, I am just severely annoyed - it's an important distinction. - Rick Mercer

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    Quote Originally Posted by mag View Post
    Samantha wasn't out on the Senior Circuit earlier because the USFSA really only controls one GP spot (Skate America host pick) per season. She didn't place well enough at Nationals to go to Worlds or 4CC's so she had no chance to get on the SB list so therefore no SGP assignment. The best place to get ranking points and the possibility of a SGP is on the JGP and Jr. Worlds. Who should Samantha have bumped for a spot at Worlds or 4CC's?
    I think that year where Emily Hughes lost to Semantha (was it NA regioonals?) there was talk about Cesario getting the SA host pick instead of Emily? I guess that's what another poster referred to. She could have gotten a host pick another year too the year after she placed 3rd in both gps (instead of Flatt getting it). But as we know, selectioons are often tied to nationals and nationals only...

    BTW, I thought USFS controls 2 host picks?

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlai View Post
    Chiera cant go to jr worlds because she doesnt have a qualifying score.
    Chiera would have to earn a qualifying score in order to skate at Junior Worlds, but she certainly could do so. There are several Junior "B" competitions between U.S. Nationals and Junior Worlds.

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    Chiera would have to earn a qualifying score in order to skate at Junior Worlds, but she certainly could do so. There are several Junior "B" competitions between U.S. Nationals and Junior Worlds.
    Yes, but I don't forsee that happening at all. Edmunds didn't get sent last year and I don't see Chiera going either.

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlai View Post
    Yes, but I don't forsee that happening at all. Edmunds didn't get sent last year and I don't see Chiera going either.
    Is that an appropriate comparison? Edmunds competed as a Junior at Nationals; Chiera will be competing as a Senior. In 2012, the USFSA sent Leah Keiser, who had finished twelfth in Seniors at Nationals, to the International Challenge Cup for her first international assignment. Perhaps they will do the same for Chiera if she does well enough at Nationals.
    Last edited by Vagabond; 12-11-2013 at 05:14 PM. Reason: Edited to reflect the correct year and placement. Thank you, Sylvia.

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    I could see Polina sneaking into the top 5 at nationals this year with two good performances but I'm very doubtful she or any of the other junior level skaters will be awarded that 3rd spot unless there are a number of epic implosions this year. Mirai, Samantha, Agnes, Christina and Courtney are shortlisted for that 3rd spot...I'd truly be shocked if the spot went to someone other than one of these ladies.
    I keep forgetting about her.

  19. #319

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    Is that an appropriate comparison? Edmunds competed as a Junior at Nationals; Chiera will be competing as a Senior. In 2011, the USFSA sent Leah Keiser, who had finished tenth in Seniors at Nationals, to the International Challenge Cup for her first international assignment. Perhaps they will do the same for Chiera if she does well enough at Nationals.
    That's what I'm thinking is a likely scenario for Chiera (a spring international if she places in the top 10-12).

    BTW, Keiser placed 12th in her senior debut at 2012 Nationals; she was then assigned to her first international at Challenge Cup that spring (won the Junior gold there), ahead of her JGP debut later in the fall.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

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    Cesario wasn't out to the senior Bs / GPs earlier because for two years in a row she was injured and had to withdraw from Nationals, and in that first season she won Sectionals and in the second season she medaled in both JGPs. She just had rotten luck at Nationals (and even last year - if you asked me I would have had her place much higher) - I am hoping her bad luck with that event is all used up.

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