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  1. #401
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    To some extent I can even justify some manipulation to PCS to make sure the best skaters are on the team.
    No, that compromises the integrity of the event (to be honest, they seem to already do this to some extent).

  2. #402
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    [QUOTE=RFOS;4093533 Polina (not Polinda) is competing as a Senior at Nationals and is age-eligible, so she is in the running for an Olympic spot (at least officially, regardless of what you think of her statistically chances of getting one-- but if she skates her free skate as well as she has been all season and skates a good short program also, I'd say she's definitely in the hunt).[/QUOTE]

    I hope so! That's exactly what I mean. If Polina or Courtney or Mirai, etc skate lights out in short and long, compared to mediocre skates from the expected top two, they should win and be sent to Sochi.

  3. #403

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    I hope the judging and Olympic Team selection process is fair also! But as we know, there's a lot of subjectivity in what's "fair."

  4. #404

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    Quote Originally Posted by demetriosj View Post
    I hope so! That's exactly what I mean. If Polina or Courtney or Mirai, etc skate lights out in short and long, compared to mediocre skates from the expected top two, they should win and be sent to Sochi.
    The third spot is available for anyone that skates well enough to place that high. However, dropping Ashley and Gracie (both) from the team would be disastrous, if they place 4th & 5th. Those are the ones with podium potential in Sochi. The fed is going to first think of what's best for the USA, whether it's fair or not. Of course if one of the other skaters actually wins the US title, the fed is bound by the rules to select that skater. It's a tall order for the three skaters you mentioned, but if that happens, it will still leave the USFSA the option to select two skaters for the other two spots, and I believe they will pick Ashley and Gracie, regardless of how anyone skates.

  5. #405

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    I'm not so totally sure that would happen. After all, Abbott almost surely would've been considered to have more potential to place high at Worlds than Miner the year he lost to Miner for the 3rd place by a tiny fraction of a point overall, but Ross was still selected and went to Worlds. We'll just have to wait and see, to a certain extent all this endless speculation is getting really tiresome for me (even though I often like considering all of the possible outcomes of things, sometimes I have to laugh a little bit at certain wildly speculative threads and posts on the board).

  6. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    , and I believe they will pick Ashley and Gracie, regardless of how anyone skates.
    and is that fair?, is that ethical?

    that's why I said it would be a boring and disappointing Nationals if Wagner and/or Gold have mediocre skates compared to more deserving skaters, but are still sent to Sochi by USFS.

    but you are right, it most probably will happen regardless of how anyone else skates.........

  7. #407

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Of course if one of the other skaters actually wins the US title, the fed is bound by the rules to select that skater.
    Not for the Olympics. The rules for Olympic team selection are different from world team selection and very specifically do not require that the champion be named to the team, in order to protect USFS's rights to the event by not making them official Olympic trials.

    That said, there is virtually no chance that a skater who wins Nationals would not be chosen for the Olympic team. Unless they're not eligible because of citizenship or because of age (in which case they also can't go to Worlds).

  8. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    This is exactly what's wrong with selecting an Olympic team based on only the nationals. Anyone can have a really good or a really bad day, and the Olympic spot should not be determined by that.
    Luckily, the criteria doesn't require selection only on nationals.

    It would need to be an extraordinary case for it not to be nationals though. I would think if Wagner bombs, she would still be named to the team. I don't think that happens for anyone else though, including Gold.

  9. #409

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFOS View Post
    I'm not so totally sure that would happen. After all, Abbott almost surely would've been considered to have more potential to place high at Worlds than Miner the year he lost to Miner for the 3rd place by a tiny fraction of a point overall, but Ross was still selected and went to Worlds. We'll just have to wait and see, to a certain extent all this endless speculation is getting really tiresome for me (even though I often like considering all of the possible outcomes of things, sometimes I have to laugh a little bit at certain wildly speculative threads and posts on the board).
    I wouldn't put Abbott and Wagner in the same category. With a few mistakes by the front runners Wagner could be on the podium. IMHO, it would take a meltdown of epic proportions for Abbott to get to the World or Olympic podiums. He also has never had two seasons in a row like Ashley has had the last two seasons.
    A good rant is cathartic. Ranting is what keeps me sane. They always come from a different place. Take the prime minister, for example. Sometimes when I rant about him, I am angry; other times, I am just severely annoyed - it's an important distinction. - Rick Mercer

  10. #410

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    This is exactly what's wrong with selecting an Olympic team based on only the nationals. Anyone can have a really good or a really bad day, and the Olympic spot should not be determined by that. The goal for any fed is to place as high as possible at the Olympics (preferably at the top of the podium, or at least on the podium). To some extent I can even justify some manipulation to PCS to make sure the best skaters are on the team.
    Totally agree. Using Marai as an example...on any given day she can be fabulous. It is just that you never know which Marai is going to show up on which day. The star one or the sulky one. I think those spots need to go to skaters who have proven their ability and consistent results. (And I don't mean consistent jumps....I mean top finishes).
    DH - and that's just my opinion

  11. #411

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Anyone can have a really good or a really bad day, and the Olympic spot should not be determined by that.
    Why not? The Olympics is a single event, just like Nationals. The skaters at Nationals have to be able to produce at that particular time, in that particular place, which is exactly what they have to do at the Olympics.

    To some extent I can even justify some manipulation to PCS to make sure the best skaters are on the team.
    I can't. "Best" is extremely subjective.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  12. #412

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    Quote Originally Posted by AxelAnnie View Post
    Totally agree. Using Marai as an example...on any given day she can be fabulous. It is just that you never know which Marai is going to show up on which day. The star one or the sulky one. I think those spots need to go to skaters who have proven their ability and consistent results. (And I don't mean consistent jumps....I mean top finishes).
    If Mirai finished 3rd or better at Nationals, I'd send her for sure. No one other than Ashley has made a compelling case to be sent to Sochi without a National medal. They have all had mixed results, no so much better than Mirai, and Mirai still has probably the 3rd best scoring potential behind Ashley and Gracie.

  13. #413

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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Why not? The Olympics is a single event, just like Nationals. The skaters at Nationals have to be able to produce at that particular time, in that particular place, which is exactly what they have to do at the Olympics.

    .
    I used to think that too, but when I considered the pov of the fed, I saw that their goal is to win medals, or at least place as high as possible. So they select skaters that would give them the best chance to medal at the Olympics.

    The US nationals really determine just one spot- the winner goes to the Olympics (or worlds, in the non-Olympic years). The fed has enough flexibility in the rules to select non-medal winners from nationals, but that rarely happens for PR reasons. There will be cries of unfairness. When Michelle Kwan was selected without competing at the nationals, over the bronze medal winner Emily Hughes, there was a huge uproar of 'poor Emily was robbed'. Kwan gave them a better chance of winning a medal so that's who they chose. It was fair, according to the rules. When a lesser skater than Kwan is selected without a podium finish, I can just imagine how big the uproar will be, and yet it is within the rules.

    They will make it easier on themselves by changing the rules to include other competitions, so an outsider won't believe that the s- and B- winners from nationals were robbed. Their rules need to support their goals without causing controversy.

  14. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by AxelAnnie View Post
    Totally agree. Using Marai as an example...on any given day she can be fabulous. It is just that you never know which Marai is going to show up on which day. The star one or the sulky one. I think those spots need to go to skaters who have proven their ability and consistent results. (And I don't mean consistent jumps....I mean top finishes).
    It's Mirai.

  15. #415
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    ^ that's a good point - the fed is probably "between a rock and a hard place" when it comes to these kinds of issues. It would be in their best interests to select team members based on overall readiness and strength, regardless of nationals results; yet if they did so, many in the mainstream media would cry foul. And if they simply go down the nationals results, potentially leaving off a stronger competitor who just had a rough skate, they damage their chances (and some might argue reputation) on the international stage.

    Still, I don't remember the whole MK-Hughes deal being this big scandal or anything. I do remember many skatefans raising eyebrows, though.

  16. #416
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    If USFS has definite guidelines like the Japanese federation or the Chinese federation then non-medalist can go to Sochi without causing a fuss. But I don't think that will happen -- the nationals deciding all tradition is too strong.
    I think one comp decides all is fine as long as the nationals is well judged and the caller and judges are not being lenient on urs and levels and things

  17. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    When Michelle Kwan was selected without competing at the nationals, over the bronze medal winner Emily Hughes, there was a huge uproar of 'poor Emily was robbed'.
    I don't remember a huge uproar at all. I remember some online Kwan detractors calling her a hypocrite because she made a big deal out of not asking for an injury bye at 1998 nationals saying she wanted to earn her spot fairly and then asked for a bye in 2006. But huge uproar? Not at all!

  18. #418

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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    I don't remember a huge uproar at all. I remember some online Kwan detractors calling her a hypocrite because she made a big deal out of not asking for an injury bye at 1998 nationals saying she wanted to earn her spot fairly and then asked for a bye in 2006. But huge uproar? Not at all!
    IIRC, the biggest 'uproar' was from the Hugheses.

  19. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by euterpe View Post
    IIRC, the biggest 'uproar' was from the Hugheses.
    ??? I don't recall.

  20. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by RD View Post
    ??? I don't recall.
    I don't recall either. I was not a fan of either Hughes skater but I don't remember them making any fuss. I'd ask the poster to provide a link validating they made an uproar but I suspect such a request would be ignored anyway.

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