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  1. #161
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    There is a difference, but there isn't enough of a difference to a reasonably healthy adult. Most children are comfortable supporting their bodies on gymnasium playground where their butt isn't the seat contact. I wouldn't file that core strength and balance under athlete level.

    I don't think this is the point though. The point that there have been plenty of examples of shoulder sitting, that seemingly violate the rules. I think they need to get rid of the rule all together if this is going to be the case. It makes it seem like they're just going to pick and choose who to penalize and that's going to make any team that is penalized feel unfairly targeted. I personally think it's a pointless rule anyway.

  2. #162

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    This reminds me of when V/M were told that their Goose dismount "might" be illegal shortly before they were to skate their FD in the 2010 Olympics. All season long they had a different dismount for Tessa and then "the word" came out that the jump she did off Scott's leg could possibly be illegal. The dismount they used was something they came up with, basically at the last minute.

    Different tech panels? Some "back stage" lobbying? I doubt we will ever know.

    I would certainly hope that nothing similar takes place against any of the skaters either in Sochi or at Worlds.
    Crazy about sports!

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by professordeb View Post
    This reminds me of when V/M were told that their Goose dismount "might" be illegal shortly before they were to skate their FD in the 2010 Olympics. All season long they had a different dismount for Tessa and then "the word" came out that the jump she did off Scott's leg could possibly be illegal. The dismount they used was something they came up with, basically at the last minute.

    Different tech panels? Some "back stage" lobbying? I doubt we will ever know.

    I would certainly hope that nothing similar takes place against any of the skaters either in Sochi or at Worlds.
    I think there should be a general rule, that if you've competed in two international competitions with the same elements, that your elements should be "passed". Assuming you're doing them the exact same way and there is no botch or delay of course. It makes no sense for an element to be okay for the first four competitions, but not the last. There has to be some measure, some standard of consistency with the judges, or it's all BS.

    I thought the goose change turned out very pretty and in a lot of ways suited the program better, but they shouldn't have had to change it. What if it was a difficult change or change that messed with the levels and made them rethink their whole lift? It's just not right.

  4. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessiebanana View Post
    I think there should be a general rule, that if you've competed in two international competitions with the same elements, that your elements should be "passed". Assuming you're doing them the exact same way and there is no botch or delay of course. It makes no sense for an element to be okay for the first four competitions, but not the last. There has to be some measure, some standard of consistency with the judges, or it's all BS.

    I thought the goose change turned out very pretty and in a lot of ways suited the program better, but they shouldn't have had to change it. What if it was a difficult change or change that messed with the levels and made them rethink their whole lift? It's just not right.
    I have to totally agree with the part I bolded. I really liked what they used as a dismount for the Goose. That being said, I still enjoy when she jumps off as well.

    The fact they could come up with something that quickly, have it blend in seamlessly and then perform it so well blows my mind. Asking skaters to change up their program/element simply on the basis of "talk" just reeks of something extremely smelly going on in the world of figure skating. That shouldn't surprise me, though.

    ETA: I sincerely hope nothing like this takes place with any of the skaters competing this season. It's just not right to penalize/try to penalize/interpret the rules differently than what has been done/used all season.
    Crazy about sports!

  5. #165

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    Like when Joubert got a music with lyrics deduction at the 2008 World Championship after using the same piece of music all season.
    When watching live I like everyone to skate clean - but on television the occasional trainwreck can be fun.

  6. #166
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    Wasn't there also an issue with the ending of VMs SD that year? Something about the move where he throws her up and she spins in the air, I think they had to change that by worlds?

  7. #167
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    IIRC, Scott said they were informed the day of OD and they didn't know what they were going to do until they were on ice skating OD.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by volunteer View Post
    Wasn't there also an issue with the ending of VMs SD that year? Something about the move where he throws her up and she spins in the air, I think they had to change that by worlds?
    Are you thinking about their goose lift? The original lift involved Tessa dismounting by jumping off Scott, while doing a spin and landing. Apparently it is illegal in Ice Dance to spin more than once during a jump, and the Goose dismount required about a 1.25 spin. V/M hadn't consider it a jump, since Tessa did not actually take-off from the ice. Although it was never officially declared illegal at a competition, there was talk it was being questioned. So as not to risk suddenly being penalized at a critical time (eg. Vancouver Olympics), it was removed. However, they still do the original version at shows.
    Last edited by rvi5; 12-05-2013 at 03:49 PM.

  9. #169

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    The goose lift was changed before Canadian Championships, so I'm not sure about how much time they had or when they found out that the lift might be declared illegal.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dg4OcXWYQdc
    When watching live I like everyone to skate clean - but on television the occasional trainwreck can be fun.

  10. #170
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    I think some people are conflating two different events. It happened twice that season: Once with the Goose lift, and once with the ending of their flamenco OD. With the Goose, my understanding is that they heard the jump dismount might be illegal well in advance of the Olympics, so they had time to come up with a new dismount during training. They performed the new version at Nationals. With the ending of the OD, it was deemed legal the entire season, including at the Olympics, and then they apparently only heard shortly before they were to perform it at Worlds that it might be deemed illegal. That was the one where they sort of improvised a new ending.

    I agree with those who say that this is a ridiculous way for officials to run things. If a move (or music choice) has been legal all season, they shouldn't be allowed to change their minds.

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by teaspoon View Post
    I think some people are conflating two different events. It happened twice that season: Once with the Goose lift, and once with the ending of their flamenco OD. With the Goose, my understanding is that they heard the jump dismount might be illegal well in advance of the Olympics, so they had time to come up with a new dismount during training. They performed the new version at Nationals. With the ending of the OD, it was deemed legal the entire season, including at the Olympics, and then they apparently only heard shortly before they were to perform it at Worlds that it might be deemed illegal. That was the one where they sort of improvised a new ending.

    I agree with those who say that this is a ridiculous way for officials to run things. If a move (or music choice) has been legal all season, they shouldn't be allowed to change their minds.
    teaspoon - thanks for clarifying, that's it, there were two separate issues, the Goose lift and the ending of the flamenco OD/SD

  12. #172
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    I agree that the rules have to be clarified so that everyone is on the same page and there is consistency throughout the events. The rules should also recognize the differences in strength and balance required for various 'sitting' positions. One of the lifts in question here involves the female partner having to manage rotational force while pulling up her core and using these muscles as well as those in her thighs to maintain the position, so I don't think that should be considered sitting. I think the rules should be specific about contact points and the amount of the body that is resting on the partner--they should specify that the partners share the work load in the lifts such that the female is required to support a lot of her own weight in order to achieve a level 4.


    Lena and Nikita have focused on really improving their lifts this year (and Nikita has the bruises to prove it!) and I hope they do not face any deductions. Their last rotational is the only one I am not crazy about and I hope they change that. I agree they were overmarked at TEB but at least they are planning to add transitions. I think they really connect to this music and just need to add more substance and refine their lines. I want to see them skate closer together but that will take time. Right now I want to see them get their levels, add more content and smooth out their positions. I can't wait to see the results of their work with Vishneva. I still believe Lena and Nikita are the next great Russian team, and I hope they have a very special moment in Sochi

  13. #173
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    It's a shame they are not at the GPF. If only they had been marked better at NHK.

  14. #174
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    The judging in the short dance today was awful.
    P/B get punished for bad twizzles but D/W don't, they just get rewarded with a World Record score.
    How is that allowed to happen ?.
    I would have had it;
    1st V/M
    2nd W/P
    3rd D/W
    4th B/S
    5th P/B
    6th C/L

  15. #175
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    The judges obviously do not care one bit about the sport anymore. They are so keen on giving DW an OGM that they completely ignore how they or the other teams actually skate. People worry about Russian politics for a bronze medal when even the gold wont be nothing but a farce. This sport has lost every credibility.

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    Does anyone know what the illegal move C/L got a deduction for was? Again, it's very strange that a dance that was fine the two previous times they performed it is now being questioned.

    B/S are being held up by their PCS so much. They just don't seem to be able to get comfortable with the finnstep.

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dolore View Post
    The judges obviously do not care one bit about the sport anymore. They are so keen on giving DW an OGM that they completely ignore how they or the other teams actually skate. People worry about Russian politics for a bronze medal when even the gold wont be nothing but a farce. This sport has lost every credibility.
    It's laughable how the IJS was supposed to give ice dance credibility. Even if fans can follow the TES on the screen, the PCS is easy to manipulate to give a team the lead.

  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by morqet View Post
    Does anyone know what the illegal move C/L got a deduction for was? Again, it's very strange that a dance that was fine the two previous times they performed it is now being questioned.

    B/S are being held up by their PCS so much. They just don't seem to be able to get comfortable with the finnstep.
    B/S have more power than P/B & W/P but not the silky smooth style of W/P or the original choreography of P/B.
    The judges should be held to account over D/W marks. Was that really a world record score ?.
    I can name 10 other SD's better than that over the past three seasons (At least).
    It's just awful.
    What will the judges do if D/W have a fall in Sochi ?. You can't cover that up.

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by icefan1005 View Post
    It's laughable how the IJS was supposed to give ice dance credibility. Even if fans can follow the TES on the screen, the PCS is easy to manipulate to give a team the lead.
    I would believe the best for this sport would be to get kicked out of the Olympics for a couple of years so that they can finally clean up the mess. It would such for skaters and fans but the sport could profit from it. But what can one expect when the people in charge and the judges are still the same that already lied and cheated decades ago ? The new system wasnt enough. They needed new people and get rid of the old ones.

  20. #180
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    This was such a bad result. How can you give a World Record score to that ?!. It's a massive insult to the other 5 couples who are working just as hard.
    I really think now that D/W already have an OGM around their neck. 3 months before the Olympics.
    What's the point of changing the judging system & making Ice Dance harder if you still hand the top couple a win EVERY TIME ?.
    If I was Tessa or Scott I would be fuming.

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