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  1. #241

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    Quote Originally Posted by PairSk8Fan View Post
    You know, besides Moir being expressive and mugging as if he is the only skater in the world with sex appeal, I find nothing all that outstanding about this ice dance team. Phony romantic themes with questionable skating every season, "peaking" for Worlds and Olympics.

    Virtue and Moir are BORING.

    Therefore, it makes me watch all the other teams more closely, and I realize that V/M are not THAT great.
    Peaking for Worlds/Olympics is the norm for pretty much a lot of skaters regardless of the discipline and it has been that way for a number of years.

    When the Grand Prix came out, it was a means that skaters used to get their programs out there, get feed back and fine tune them as the season went on. It was never meant that a skater or team would come out in their first GP event and be pretty much ready for the season and receiving monster scores. Those who have been following skating and the GP series would tell you the same.

    You are, of course, entitled to your opinion of Moir himself and the team of V/M even though many would disagree with you (and that would include past and present ice dance skaters).

    Phony is as phony does and there are a number of teams whose programs I found phony -- past and present.
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    When the Grand Prix came out, it was a means that skaters used to get their programs out there, get feed back and fine tune them as the season went on. It was never meant that a skater or team would come out in their first GP event
    Kind of but not quite. Before there was a GP series, there were a few fall events. I recall the German one, NHK, and Pirouetten being around years ago. I think for a while Skate Canada and Skate America alternated years. In those days you are exactly right. This was a chance to get a program in front of audiences and judges to learn what fixes were needed. I remember Moskvina referring to it as a "first pancake" - testing the pan before you start making the ones you are going to serve. In those days, though, skaters did not put in the year-round effort training and working out that they do today. In the spring/early summer, they put in pretty light hours, instead of just taking a couple weeks off after COI finished.

    Once they turned the fall events into the GP series and started paying prize money, I think the ISU, the paying customers and networks do expect skaters to make the effort to prepare for these events for real. I don't doubt V/M are training seriously for these events and want to put on a good performance. The nature of their style is that it really only transcends to magic when everything is close to perfect. If they look at all rough or their timing is the least bit off, those glitches and hesitations really break the mood (at least for me) and their programs can descend to not very compelling. I guess what I am trying to say is that if V/M and several other dance teams were all equally prepared, V/M would look the least prepared until everybody reaches 95% + of peak.

    As for phoney, let's get real. A good chunk of ice dance seems to be about facial mugging, giving your partner fake lovestruck looks, and whatever. (I mean, how many of these dance teams are real life romantic partners? We all have to admit that every loving/soulful/lustful look between V&M or D&W or almost any other team is fake. I have never understood why one skater's fake looks are seen as any more fake than anyone else's fake looks, except perhaps that the viewer wants to believe one and not the other.) I do agree, though, that Moir's hamminess does look odd when they are not skating their best. I used to feel similarly about Steven Cousins trying to act all sexy in his programs. I always thought "Get on the podium first, then you can act sexy."
    Last edited by Susan M; 12-31-2013 at 02:29 AM. Reason: correct Cousins' first name

  3. #243

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    Would that be Stephen Cousins or Robin Cousins or somebody else's cousin Cousins????

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    I guess I don't really mind D/W and V/M dominating the field because that's sort of par for the course in ice dance. I think the only truly open era was the 2007-2010 quad where we had a different World Champion (and medalists) every year. Only Virtue/Moir and Belbin/Agosto were repeat world medalists that quad. No team truly dominated.

    Prior to that, we knew Navka/Kostomorov would win every event they entered for 3 seasons in a row (2004-2006), Grishuk/Platov won every competition they entered four seasons in a row (not counting their Olympic winning season in 1993-1994) with Krylova/Ovysyannikov placing second in the final two seasons of that quad, Bestemianova/Bukin winning four seasons in a row with Klimova/Ponomarenko placing second, Torvill/Dean winning everything in sight prior to that, etc.

    Of course the 1999-2002 quad was shaken up with Krylova/Ovysyannikov's early retirement and the rise of Anissina/Peizerat being upset by Fusar-Poli/Margaglio (for whatever reason you believe…politicking, taking advantage of a shaky Peizerat, deserving to beat A/P, etc) and the hurrying up of Lobacheva/Averbukh from one of the bronze medal contenders to being one judge away from winning the OGM, so that was as open as Ice Dance under the 6.0 system could be. And of course, the fanfare and Christopher Dean support of the Duschenays with Klimova/Ponomarenko falling from grace during the 1990-1991 season was an anomaly for a quad that would have been clearly (and deservedly) dominated by Klimova/Ponomarenko.

    Anyway, I know some people are sort of tired of North Americans dominating Ice Dance for four/five seasons, but we already had Europeans dominate 33 years out of 34 since Ice Dance became a part of the Olympics. Of course, Bourne/Kraatz winning Worlds one year doesn't really show that Europeans still didn't dominate Ice Dance that season. Yes, I know Europe is a very diverse place, but so is North America (even if North American Ice Dance right now is centered in three camps in Michigan), and the Russians (and Soviets) were the vast majority of European domination in Ice Dance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuge View Post
    I can't help feeling a bit sad that B/S if D/W V/M P/B retire after olympics are pretty much the new world champions
    On neutral ice Weaver & Poje have a great shot of beating them. I also think D&W will go to the Worlds, probably not V&M and P&B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I guess I don't really mind D/W and V/M dominating the field because that's sort of par for the course in ice dance. I think the only truly open era was the 2007-2010 quad where we had a different World Champion (and medalists) every year. Only Virtue/Moir and Belbin/Agosto were repeat world medalists that quad. No team truly dominated.

    Prior to that, we knew Navka/Kostomorov would win every event they entered for 3 seasons in a row (2004-2006), Grishuk/Platov won every competition they entered four seasons in a row (not counting their Olympic winning season in 1993-1994) with Krylova/Ovysyannikov placing second in the final two seasons of that quad, Bestemianova/Bukin winning four seasons in a row with Klimova/Ponomarenko placing second, Torvill/Dean winning everything in sight prior to that, etc.

    Of course the 1999-2002 quad was shaken up with Krylova/Ovysyannikov's early retirement and the rise of Anissina/Peizerat being upset by Fusar-Poli/Margaglio (for whatever reason you believe…politicking, taking advantage of a shaky Peizerat, deserving to beat A/P, etc) and the hurrying up of Lobacheva/Averbukh from one of the bronze medal contenders to being one judge away from winning the OGM, so that was as open as Ice Dance under the 6.0 system could be. And of course, the fanfare and Christopher Dean support of the Duschenays with Klimova/Ponomarenko falling from grace during the 1990-1991 season was an anomaly for a quad that would have been clearly (and deservedly) dominated by Klimova/Ponomarenko.

    Anyway, I know some people are sort of tired of North Americans dominating Ice Dance for four/five seasons, but we already had Europeans dominate 33 years out of 34 since Ice Dance became a part of the Olympics. Of course, Bourne/Kraatz winning Worlds one year doesn't really show that Europeans still didn't dominate Ice Dance that season. Yes, I know Europe is a very diverse place, but so is North America (even if North American Ice Dance right now is centered in three camps in Michigan), and the Russians (and Soviets) were the vast majority of European domination in Ice Dance.
    Krylova & Ovsiannikov were being challenged hard by Anissina & Peizerat even before their forced retirement. They won all 3 major events (Europeans, GPF, Worlds) in early 99 by only .1 of a point, and some controversly so. With GPF and Worlds both in France, the negative publicity towards K&O, and A&P`s legendary Carmina Burana routine I am 99% certain the French were winning the 2000 Worlds regardless of K&O. After that who knows.

    Remember too Usova & Zhulin were very close to winning the 91 Worlds. They led the competition all the way until the FD, and got 4 1st place votes in the FD, yet still somehow dropped to 3rd. Story of their career basically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    Would that be Stephen Cousins or Robin Cousins or somebody else's cousin Cousins????
    Oh, rats. I meant Steven. Robin has all the credentials he needs to do whatever he wants on ice, including, IIRC, once skating to a poem with no music. The English do love their poets, but then they had a real glut of good ones there for a while.

    I don't know why, but I always feel a skater needs to establish some credibility before turning to frills or acting like a rock star.

    In a similar vein, what was that BS at the GP finals medal ceremony with the pairs silver medalists waltzing around the ice??? Save that showing off for when you actually win. I thought it colossally insulting to the winners to act like you are the real stars of the event. So rude. So funny he landed on his can. (Sorry, straying OT.)
    Last edited by Susan M; 12-31-2013 at 02:29 AM.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    I do agree, though, that Moir's hamminess does look odd when they are not skating their best. I used to feel similarly about Steven Cousins trying to act all sexy in his programs. I always thought "Get on the podium first, then you can act sexy."
    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    I don't know why, but I always feel a skater needs to establish some credibility before turning to frills or acting like a rock star.

    In a similar vein, what was that BS at the GP finals medal ceremony with the pairs silver medalists waltzing around the ice??? Save that showing off for when you actually win. I thought it colossally insulting to the winners to act like you are the real stars of the event. So rude. So funny he landed on his can. (Sorry, straying OT.)
    I think that acting "hammy", "sexy", or whatever, during the performance, and acting like you've won the event outside of the performance are two very different things. After all, "Performance" is part of the PCS, therefore, in an ideal situation, skaters should continue to perform/act out the character of their program even if they have made mistakes technically, because otherwise their overall marks are going suffer even more. Not many skaters really manage to do that - there are more such skaters among ice dancers, because expression/acting/so on has traditionally been stronger in ice dancing, but Virtue/Moir are one of the best in that regard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    Kind of but not quite. Before there was a GP series, there were a few fall events. I recall the German one, NHK, and Pirouetten being around years ago. I think for a while Skate Canada and Skate America alternated years. In those days you are exactly right. This was a chance to get a program in front of audiences and judges to learn what fixes were needed. I remember Moskvina referring to it as a "first pancake" - testing the pan before you start making the ones you are going to serve. In those days, though, skaters did not put in the year-round effort training and working out that they do today. In the spring/early summer, they put in pretty light hours, instead of just taking a couple weeks off after COI finished.

    Once they turned the fall events into the GP series and started paying prize money, I think the ISU, the paying customers and networks do expect skaters to make the effort to prepare for these events for real. I don't doubt V/M are training seriously for these events and want to put on a good performance. The nature of their style is that it really only transcends to magic when everything is close to perfect. If they look at all rough or their timing is the least bit off, those glitches and hesitations really break the mood (at least for me) and their programs can descend to not very compelling. I guess what I am trying to say is that if V/M and several other dance teams were all equally prepared, V/M would look the least prepared until everybody reaches 95% + of peak.

    As for phoney, let's get real. A good chunk of ice dance seems to be about facial mugging, giving your partner fake lovestruck looks, and whatever. (I mean, how many of these dance teams are real life romantic partners? We all have to admit that every loving/soulful/lustful look between V&M or D&W or almost any other team is fake. I have never understood why one skater's fake looks are seen as any more fake than anyone else's fake looks, except perhaps that the viewer wants to believe one and not the other.) I do agree, though, that Moir's hamminess does look odd when they are not skating their best. I used to feel similarly about Steven Cousins trying to act all sexy in his programs. I always thought "Get on the podium first, then you can act sexy."
    Regarding the bolded part of your post -- I didn't say or mean that skaters didn't prepare for the GP events, only that most skaters knew they were a long way from where they planned to be by the time Worlds/Olympics came around. I don't think any of the skaters back then expected to see 6.0 or 10s in their marks early in the season. Most were trying out new material, new moves, new jumps and it was usually expected that what you saw early in the season would be somewhat rough around the edges. Most fans knew and understood such. It was expected back then, that skaters would show improvement of their programs over the season, getting better and higher scores as they approached either their national championships or attending a competition like Europeans. Skaters would then go and "amp" up their training (whatever that meant to them), changing/tweaking their programs so that by the time the Big Comps were to take place, their programs tended to look smoother, polished and what was likely envisioned for it way back in the fall.

    As it stands right now, there seems to be two camps of "thought" in Ice Dance. One is that you are pretty much ready with your programs at the get go in September and then just do a bit of tinkering/adjusting to your programs as the season progresses.

    Then there are those in the other camp with the more traditional approach -- get your program out there, difficulty and all. Make mistakes; see what works & what doesn't; add/remove/adjust elements; maybe even throw the entire thing out and begin again; get feedback from the international judges and go back to the drawing board. The GP was supposed to be part of a process that skaters used in making those adjustments, fitting their programs to the criteria of the judging rules of the time so that they peaked at the "right" time -- World's/Olympics.

    PairSk8Fan: Ask any athlete who is training and they will tell you that it's about the process of getting better, faster, stronger as your season progresses. I can't recall reading of any athlete who has said at the beginning of their competitive season that they are pretty much set/ready as they are likely to be, regardless of how long their competition season lasts. Most athletes whom I have read/heard about always talk about wanting to peak for a specific time/event of their season. And that time is NEVER at the beginning of their season but always refers to later when the big "prize" is up for grabs. Correctly peaking is about being your best at the right time, usually at your biggest competition. AFAIK, V/M and other skaters (other athletes in general) understand when it is that you want to "peak".
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    So no Bobrova/Soloviev for the European Championships.
    They are deciding to stay home & train.
    That usually is a bad decision (Remember Den/Sta in 2006 ?).
    With a couple of falls this season I really think they should go & try to give their beat before Sochi.

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    [QUOTE=PashaFan;4094078]
    They are deciding to stay home & train.
    That usually is a bad decision (Remember Den/Sta in 2006 ?).

    Yes I remember.Denstas and FP/M who were training together and making their comeback decided or Linichuk decided for them to not compete at Euro's.I remember Simon Reed saying at the olympics that Denstas saying they didn't want to be JUDGED till the olympics.They had dropped down to fifth position at world's from second the year before.I don't really think it did them much harm actually because they were great in the CD it was their mistakes in the OD which cost them .We all know how well FP/M did in the CD too don't we ?I'm really hoping P/B have a great competition that will give them a great deal of confidence going to the Games.

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    [QUOTE=nuge;4094247]
    Quote Originally Posted by PashaFan View Post
    They are deciding to stay home & train.
    That usually is a bad decision (Remember Den/Sta in 2006 ?).

    Yes I remember.Denstas and FP/M who were training together and making their comeback decided or Linichuk decided for them to not compete at Euro's.I remember Simon Reed saying at the olympics that Denstas saying they didn't want to be JUDGED till the olympics.They had dropped down to fifth position at world's from second the year before.I don't really think it did them much harm actually because they were great in the CD it was their mistakes in the OD which cost them .We all know how well FP/M did in the CD too don't we ?I'm really hoping P/B have a great competition that will give them a great deal of confidence going to the Games.
    You are bringing me back to the nightmare of Turin by reminding me of the Barbara evil eyes !.
    But yes, I hope it works in Nathalie & Fabians favour.

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    [QUOTE=PashaFan;4094681]
    Quote Originally Posted by nuge View Post
    You are bringing me back to the nightmare of Turin by reminding me of the Barbara evil eyes !.
    But yes, I hope it works in Nathalie & Fabians favour.
    I can't believe it's eight years ago
    I'm very interested to see P/B SD before the games .I hope they haven't changed it too much .The FD is
    Did you like the new gala piece at Courcheval ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PashaFan View Post
    So no Bobrova/Soloviev for the European Championships.
    They are deciding to stay home & train.
    That usually is a bad decision (Remember Den/Sta in 2006 ?).
    With a couple of falls this season I really think they should go & try to give their beat before Sochi.
    This was discussed in the Russia thread in GSD. I also thought this was a terrible decision but it was explained there the reason Zhulin did it was because B/S are skating both SD and FD in the team event [which is early] and they wouldnt have enough time to train and rest properly if they did Euros as well. Take it for what it's worth.

    It was also reported that there's a rumor circulating in Russia that P/B will also skip Euros - we'll see if it's true or not. I think it's a terrible idea for both of them and it may well come back to haunt them in Sochi. If both skip, it will leave the door wide open for I/K who can then skate without much pressure. With a really good performance and a big score at Euros, they could well be OBMs. I think the bronze fight will be very close and any little edge will help. Whoever wins Euros will see their PCS go up in Sochi IMO and with the fight so close, any little advantage could tip the scales.
    Last edited by Tak; 01-04-2014 at 11:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tak View Post
    It was also reported that there's a rumor circulating in Russia that P/B will also skip Euros - we'll see if it's true or not. I think it's a terrible idea for both of them and it may well come back to haunt them in Sochi. If both skip, it will leave the door wide open for I/K who can then skate without much pressure. With a really good performance and a big score at Euros, they could well be OBMs.
    I don't know. Bobrova/Soloviev beat I/K pretty handily at their Nationals (more than 10 points). Will the Russians really expend effort politicking for two teams with only one podium spot likely available or will they put all their efforts behind their champions?

    I agree a win at Europeans would help anybody's PCS, but I can't really see the Russians dumping B/S to start pushing for I/K at this late date.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    I don't know. Bobrova/Soloviev beat I/K pretty handily at their Nationals (more than 10 points). Will the Russians really expend effort politicking for two teams with only one podium spot likely available or will they put all their efforts behind their champions?

    I agree a win at Europeans would help anybody's PCS, but I can't really see the Russians dumping B/S to start pushing for I/K at this late date.
    I take your point, but OTOH it seems to me Russians have been pushing both I/K and B/S for most if not all of this quad, and seem to be wanting I/K to do well and overtake them. They keep shooting themselves in the foot with their up and down performances [I/K] - however - they do seem to have a magic quality of putting a bad performance behind them and coming out all guns blazing next time. On their best days they are also capable of racking up huge scores in international competitions - their highest scores IIRC are higher than anything B/S got. It's kind of like capturing lightning in a bottle with them, but when they hit, they really light up the arena, and their FD this year suits them to a tee.

    I could see them winning Euros with a huge score, and then who the Rus Fed will back going into Sochi is anyone's guess. It's one of the reasons why I think it's such a bad idea for B/S to skip Euros.

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    I'm betting that R/T are really grateful that B/S are skipping euros..

    Honestly all this hoopla over the Russian Olympic team makes me want P/B to medal so much more. They really do deserve it more than any of the other couples fighting for bronze this year IMO, and on top of that I think they've got the best programs and material to boot (save maybe W/P, but I find P/B to be so much more developed as performers). It's going to be a breath of fresh air watching their programs (esp FD) when so much attention is going to be on a lot of the safer FD's (unless you consider barnyard sounds risky and creative) at the Olympics. I really really really hope P/B can bring it home rest of season I'm rooting very hard for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    I don't know. Bobrova/Soloviev beat I/K pretty handily at their Nationals (more than 10 points). Will the Russians really expend effort politicking for two teams with only one podium spot likely available or will they put all their efforts behind their champions?

    I agree a win at Europeans would help anybody's PCS, but I can't really see the Russians dumping B/S to start pushing for I/K at this late date.
    I/K had a really bad fall in the free at Nationals & were really shaky in the rest of the program.
    I like B/S but can't get my head around them being higher than I/K who have the WOW factor for me.

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    [QUOTE=nuge;4094859]
    Quote Originally Posted by PashaFan View Post

    I can't believe it's eight years ago
    I'm very interested to see P/B SD before the games .I hope they haven't changed it too much .The FD is
    Did you like the new gala piece at Courcheval ?
    I loved them at Courcheval (Also Nathalie's Dress !). Their "People are strange program was getting a little old for me after two seasons.
    Yes, 8 years since Turin (I feel very old). Fantastic Olympics though.
    Remember the OD with so many falls ?.
    I often watch it & still can't believe what happened. I would really have loved to have seen what the judges would have done with F-P/M had they skated clean in the OD after placing them in a shock 1st after the Compulsory.

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    Given that I/K did have that bad fall and were off for the rest of the FD, I think B/S actually could have beaten them much more decidedly.

    I'm really rooting for P/B. They've never been my favorite team (and by that I only mean they have not been my #1 favorite, but I still like them a lot), but I've always enjoyed the personality they bring to the ice and their dedication to being creative.
    (Side note and not entirely related: I still think they should have been on the podium at 2008 Worlds.)
    Last edited by lmarie086; 01-05-2014 at 03:43 PM.

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