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  1. #181

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golightly View Post
    Physics reads this and it sure finds it laughable. Not the same contact, not the same support, not even the same center of gravity. Since you're so fond of Wikipedia, you might want to check. Weight balance (and transfer) doesn't work like that. Especially when the object is moving.
    Any time you can align your center of gravity with your support, it doesn't require a lot of core strength to maintain a stable equilbrium. Depending which way your butt is hanging off the stool, you lean a bit to realign & compensate.

    There are a number of classic balance toys that illustrate how this stuff works.


    You can even have your center of gravity below the point of the support (and a very small point of support at that), and still have a very stable point of equilibrium, even if it looks quite hair raising & impossible.

    You can balance a wood toy with a floppy belt jammed into it on the very tip of your finger.
    This is a scout craft called a Sky Hook.

    http://www.phys.vt.edu/~demo/images/Mechanics/m65_1.jpg


    If you are interested in this stuff, the place to look is Classical Mechanics textbooks. Feynmann's is particularly charming.
    Landau & Lifschitz is still excellent.

    Tessa has great core strength. She just doesn't need to use it when doing a transition through a sitting position on Scott's shoulders.

    But that's not the point.

    The point is, that the rules on lifts have been applied in some very inconsistent ways, including to Tessa & Scott this season, but also to less renowned teams, like Guignard & Fabbri.

    I'd like to see the rules made more clear. I don't see who it hurts to define "sitting" and "shoulders" a little more clearly. It certainly wouldn't hurt Tessa & Scott, because they are not using any lifts with anything like sitting on shoulders this season.

    But it might help Elena & Nikita, and for that matter Charlene Guignard & Marco Fabbri to have a second's "transition" allowed for sitting, just as is given for gyno lifts. I'd like their lifts to be explicitly legal. I'd like Tessa & Scott's Carmen lift to be explicitly legal. They are all great lifts, and I'd like to see them.

    I don't see why anyone would disagree with that.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    I'd like Tessa & Scott's Carmen lift to be explicitly legal. They are all great lifts, and I'd like to see them.

    I don't see why anyone would disagree with that.
    ?? Tessa & Scott's Carmen lift is explicitly legal. It was never called illegal last season, at any competition. You may question it, but there was never a question raised by the *judges* about that lift. That means that when the judges looked at the criteria, and then looked at that lift, the lift met the criteria. That's why you able to see this "great lift' all season long.

    Unless you want a picture of Tessa & Scott's Carmen lift added to the rule book with the words "Here is an example of a legal lift," I'm not sure how much more explicit you can get.
    Last edited by sap5; 12-06-2013 at 04:20 PM.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    Any time you can align your center of gravity with your support, it doesn't require a lot of core strength to maintain a stable equilbrium. Depending which way your butt is hanging off the stool, you lean a bit to realign & compensate.
    I don't think that your comparison with a stool is a very accurate. That "stool" you are comparing Scott with is stationary & has three or four legs maybe while Scott is a human being who is rotating on two legs on skates on ice. Tessa obviously is at a height due to being on Scott's shoulders unlike when you're sitting on a stool and your core is closer to the ground thus it's much stable. Keep in mind, they are rotating which makes it harder for the senses to maintain a state of equilibrium. Very different from just sitting on a plain, old stool.

    So if you were on Scott's shoulders, you'd just sit there like you were on a stool? You wouldn't strengthen your core more and hold yourself better? Because if you fall, your partner does as well.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    Depending which way your butt is hanging off the stool, you lean a bit to realign & compensate.

    There are a number of classic balance toys that illustrate how this stuff works.

    If you are interested in this stuff, the place to look is Classical Mechanics textbooks. Feynmann's is particularly charming.
    Landau & Lifschitz is still excellent.
    I was going to just leave this discussion alone, but since it just keeps going I'll say my two cents. You may talk about stools, toys, and classical mechanics textbooks as much as you'd like, but it means nothing. None of those things is a lift, or more specifically, the lift in question. Have you ever done a lift in this position? I have. (In a contemporary dance duet to "Almost Lover") And I can guarantee you that it takes a great deal of core strength. Not because I read it somewhere in a textbook, but because I did it. Furthermore, I'm sure that given the various quick transitions going on and the speed of Scott's rotation, that Tessa's lift was even more difficult and required more strength. Not only do you have to pull yourself into an upright position and maintain good posture (which is much easier said than done), you have to be very aware of your partner's head and compensate for that. And if you don't want to take my word on it, it's a pretty popular type of lift in competitive dance these days so you can probably find tutorials and such on Youtube.


    Now, the real reason I came in here was to figure out what happened with Anna and Luca's "illegal" move? Did anyone figure that out yet?

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by MissJD View Post
    I was going to just leave this discussion alone, but since it just keeps going I'll say my two cents. You may talk about stools, toys, and classical mechanics textbooks as much as you'd like, but it means nothing. None of those things is a lift, or more specifically, the lift in question. Have you ever done a lift in this position? I have. (In a contemporary dance duet to "Almost Lover") And I can guarantee you that it takes a great deal of core strength. Not because I read it somewhere in a textbook, but because I did it. Furthermore, I'm sure that given the various quick transitions going on and the speed of Scott's rotation, that Tessa's lift was even more difficult and required more strength. Not only do you have to pull yourself into an upright position and maintain good posture (which is much easier said than done), you have to be very aware of your partner's head and compensate for that. And if you don't want to take my word on it, it's a pretty popular type of lift in competitive dance these days so you can probably find tutorials and such on Youtube.
    Very informative post! There is nothing quite like experience.

  6. #186

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dolore View Post
    I would believe the best for this sport would be to get kicked out of the Olympics for a couple of years so that they can finally clean up the mess. It would such for skaters and fans but the sport could profit from it. But what can one expect when the people in charge and the judges are still the same that already lied and cheated decades ago ? The new system wasnt enough. They needed new people and get rid of the old ones.
    I can't really think of a result this Olympics that would result in Ice dance getting kicked out.

    1/ Even people at FSU can't really explain/agree upon the breakdown of judging in ice dance with the 2 top teams. There won't be a clear wuzrobbed at any level that the media can jump on. There seems to be more fuss on FSU about the results for B & S - but even that isn't completely agreed upon.

    2/ I hate to say it but if D & W win with clearly flawed programs (and I have a hard time imagining that since they seem to rarely make mistakes - let alone glaring ones) I just don't see the North American Media causing a stir about it. It would be an American team winning and I just can't see that ruffling too many powerful feathers. There might be a bit of puzzlement in Canadian press - but if any only a bit probably and without a lot of power or influence I should imagine. And even then - a lot of people have declared Canadians whiny and in a much less clear situation it might just be written off as sour grapes. And likely they will be put into a lump with Bourne and Kraatz fans and even Sale and Pelletier fans.

    3/ If the Americans win - I can't see the media worrying too much about the other medals. If B and S win bronze or even silver even if the result it is deemed wrong by figure skating fans - I just can't see it getting too much coverage by North American Media. The Olympics are also in Russia and Russia has always been a powerhouse in ice dance. It won't surprise most media and casual fans to see Russian ice dancers in medal position. And they were the bronze medalists last year and P and B and W & P were both injured last year - and C & L are not super well known around the world. And of course it will be a lovely story for the host nation without taking anything away from the American victory.

    I may be misunderstanding who would have power in this situation to make such a decision? Maybe Cinquanta would stick up for C and L? I just can't see it getting the trajectory to get rid of the sport. Even when there was power on board for SLC the result was a change in the system - not the sport being kicked out.

  7. #187
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    Any time you can align your center of gravity with your support, it doesn't require a lot of core strength to maintain a stable equilbrium. Depending which way your butt is hanging off the stool, you lean a bit to realign & compensate.

    Last I checked, Scott is not a three-legged stool. The center of gravity in the case of the stool is the stool. It's stable. The legs aren't spinning in a spinning stool, the seat is spinning. The legs are the support. Tessa's support is a two-legged human being on the edges of a couple of skate blades. Therefore, Tessa's center of balance must accomodate Scott's rotation around his axis, supported only by his skate blades, not three immobile stool legs.

    The analogy here is just incomprehensible. This lift is an interdependent move by two skaters, not Tessa vaulting onto a stable element with a spinning lid.

    Not to mention, Tessa's core strength comes into play not simply in her ability to hold the position, but her ability to HIT the position after vaulting into it - "it" being onto the shoulders of a human being moving on his skates, hold it, and then transition out of it. She's not climbing up there either, she has to hit the moving target, arrest her own momentum atop his rotation (his shoulders aren't spinning around the stable axis of his body nailed to the ice - his entire body is spinning and balanced only on blades, so she has to be mindful of HIS equilibrium).

    I can, however, think of several lifts where the mechanics are basically the liftee crawls up or is hoisted up aligned with the lifter's center of gravity, and the pose is all she wrote. This isn't one of them.

  8. #188
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    Bad judging aside (I'm quite grumpy still), what did people think of the skating by the other four couples today ?.
    It's too bad P/B could not skate their best & they were quite slow. I don't think they will move up in the FD.
    W/P were fantastic. Fantastic Finn Step. Pure class. I hope I take to their FD more than I did at Skate Canada & COR.
    C/L were lovely. Such flow. I hope they can go out in the FD and skate a PB.
    B/S were really good & strong but I felt that their Finn Step let them down. I hope they have worked on their FD since COR.

  9. #189

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    I had no idea this thread was created just so posters can talk about D/W (about how terrible they are) and V/M (mechanics of using one's core in a lift).
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I had no idea this thread was created just so posters can talk about D/W (about how terrible they are) and V/M (mechanics of using one's core in a lift).
    This thread if for ALL lovers of Ice Dance. No D/W hate here. It was a bad result today. Can people not tell the truth ?.
    Find me posts on this thread that has been unfair to D/W.
    Most on here love all the top Ice Dance couples.
    If you are a D/W uber then you have your thread.
    This thread is for fan's of ALL couples.
    Everyone is welcome.
    Last edited by PashaFan; 12-06-2013 at 06:04 PM. Reason: Spelling Error

  11. #191

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    I'd also like to know what move of C&L was illegal. Was it that brief lift they do? I thought that it was Ok to have small moves like that???

    ETA every time I post from a phone, Auto Correct screws me over one way or the other
    Last edited by DORISPULASKI; 12-07-2013 at 05:21 PM.

  12. #192
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    Anyway, as last minute changes go, V/M "heard through the grapevine" that the judges were going to call their goose lift illegal because of her dismount and did have to change it at the last minute
    Not quite "last minute". The change was made sometime after the GP season, but I thought it was before Canadian Nationals.

    I can't really think of a result this Olympics that would result in Ice dance getting kicked out.
    It would have be be gold for someone other than D/W and V/M, and even then it would take more that bad judging. It would need to be something more scandalous, like uncovering deals or cheating judges like in SLC.

    I had no idea this thread was created just so posters can talk about D/W (about how terrible they are) and V/M (mechanics of using one's core in a lift).
    It seems impossible to have an ice dance discussion without the arrival of ubers who feel a compulsive need need to hammer their points, even when expressly uninvited by the thread title. They seem constitutionally incapable of letting any criticism for one or praise of the other escape without rebuttal (even when it means just making up BS and/or ignoring the actual rulebook). Do these folks imagine the ISU judges and callers all spend their idle hours here and will will finally see the light based on the brilliance and insight of these amateur posts?

    Returning to the topic of this thread, Anyone know yet what caused 2 point deduction for C/L in the SD today for an illegal move. I watched the dance on Icenetwork and nothing immediately jumped out. Their ending left was a little gyno, but not offensively so to my eye. The only unusual move than stood out to me was the gliding moment where her body weigh is supported by her knee on his foot. Is there a rule against that?
    Last edited by Susan M; 12-06-2013 at 09:45 PM.

  13. #193

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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post

    It seems impossible to have an ice dance discussion without the arrival of ubers who feel a compulsive need need to hammer their points, even when expressly uninvited by the thread title. They seem constitutionally incapable of letting any criticism for one or praise of the other escape without rebuttal (even when it means just making up BS, ignoring the actual rulebook, and/or the laws of physics!!!). Do these folks imagine the ISU judges and callers all spend their idle hours here and will will finally see the light based on the brilliance and insight of these amateur posts?
    The issue, I believe, is that most people don't self-identify as ubers, even when posting 10x/day in the fan threads or asking each other to write angry letters to the ISU over the SD result this morning. People like to believe that they see each event objectively despite their personal (largely emotional) preference.

    Re: C/L and the illegal element-- There was talk it was the jump turn they do in unison in the intro choreography right when they really start moving across the ice. How terrifying that it can go multiple events and then get called like that. It's such a hit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    Re: C/L and the illegal element-- There was talk it was the jump turn they do in unison in the intro choreography right when they really start moving across the ice. How terrifying that it can go multiple events and then get called like that. It's such a hit.
    Right now, those 2 points would not have made any difference in their placement.

    I had noticed the jumps, but they were only half-rotation jumps and dance jumps are expressly permitted. They are mentioned as a difficult feature for assigning levels for some elements.

    Here is the general rule re jumps in dance:

    "17. Jumps:
    a) Jump – A jump of not more than one (1) revolution, which may be executed by only one (1) partner at a time. This jump may be performed either holding hand(s) or separated, but the distance between partners must not be more than two (2) arms-lengths apart;
    b) Dance Jump – A small jump not more than ½ a revolution, used to change foot or direction. Such jumps must be executed in a dance hold or at not more than 2 arms-lengths apart. Both partners may jump at the same time;
    c) Hop – A small jump without revolution."

    I guess maybe the callers decided they were more than 2 arms-lengths apart.

    I was curious why this had not come up earlier, so I watched their SD from NHK again. The GFP moves got a lot more air. At NHK, they did not clearly leave the ice. Those looked more like turns on their toepicks.
    Last edited by Susan M; 12-06-2013 at 10:22 PM.

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    B/S were lucky to get 4th today. The Russian fed should really look at pushing I/K now instead. B/S need to change their FD.
    V/M & D/W were as amazing as ever. I thought Tessa & Scott just edged it.
    SO HAPPY FOR NATHALIE & FABIAN !. Their FD is so beautiful.
    W/P should have got 4th. Why such a low technical score ?.

  16. #196

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    Quote Originally Posted by PashaFan View Post
    B/S were lucky to get 4th today. The Russian fed should really look at pushing I/K now instead. B/S need to change their FD.
    V/M & D/W were as amazing as ever. I thought Tessa & Scott just edged it.
    SO HAPPY FOR NATHALIE & FABIAN !. Their FD is so beautiful.
    W/P should have got 4th. Why such a low technical score ?.
    Andrew had an obvious error in the CiSt, as soon as I saw it I knew they'd drop points. It took 3 points of their BV. Both step sequences were shaky actually.

    I wish I/K had made the GPF, so we'd see if TEB was a fluke or not. I think they would have had a real chance to beat B/S and strengthen their position going into Nationals.

  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subway View Post
    Last I checked, Scott is not a three-legged stool.
    the junior high school kid in me just released itself for about 30 seconds while I read this. From all the postings about how gorgeous the man is..one would think he has a significant third leg.

    Quote Originally Posted by PashaFan View Post
    This thread if for ALL lovers of Ice Dance. No D/W hate here. It was a bad result today. Can people not tell the truth ?.
    Find me posts on this thread that has been unfair to D/W.
    Most on here love all the top Ice Dance couples.
    If you are a D/W uber then you have your thread.
    The majority of posters here are V/M fans. there has been extensive bashing of the V/M-D/W scores. When I read the OP post, I wondered with V/M fan came out of the woodwork. You have the V/M thread to bash D/W in, yet you all seem to take over any and all dance threads.
    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    The issue, I believe, is that most people don't self-identify as ubers, even when posting 10x/day in the fan threads or asking each other to write angry letters to the ISU over the SD result this morning. People like to believe that they see each event objectively despite their personal (largely emotional) preference.

    Re: C/L and the illegal element-- There was talk it was the jump turn they do in unison in the intro choreography right when they really start moving across the ice. How terrifying that it can go multiple events and then get called like that. It's such a hit.
    This. on all accounts.

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    I'm so happy for P-B. They needed a good skate like that to make a statement. They're still here and in medal contention

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    Absolutely thrilled for Nathalie & Fabian today! I love their Little Prince FD!

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    sooooo happy for Nathalie & Fabian I love the many different emotions we get from them with this FD, each one beautifully expressed through the movement. They are true dancers, and I feel privileged to watch them skate this FD. Just bringing this excellent post over here from one of the "Oy..." thread. Thank you again for this, MissJD!

    Quote Originally Posted by MissJD View Post
    I'll try! Each "part" represents a change in the music.

    Part 1: The rose grows/ blooms and the Little Prince discovers it. This is kind of like a courting section - getting to know one another, a general fascination. Not a lot of story particulars to go through yet. (through about 1:19, this is the first section of music, which has a waltzy/ romantic feel to it.)

    Part 2: In the story, the rose asks the prince to do things for her/ take care of her. The more he does, the more demanding she becomes. Notice Nathalie's arm movements throughout the step sequence - like she's telling him to do this and do that. Notice how when they're not in hold, he's behind her, and she's "leading." The more upbeat music in this section expresses the back and forth and push and pull of the relationship. (through about 2:06)

    Part 3: Begins with him placing her down from the lift. In this section of the story the prince becomes tired of the rose's demands and becomes upset with her after she lies to him. Eventually they reconcile, but he leaves her to explore other planets. The sadder tone of this music represents the decline in the relationship. As far as movements, notice how Fabian turns away from her around 3:02 and looks toward other things. Then Nathalie (the rose) grabs him and pulls him back to her, he reaches away again, but stays with her. During the lift at 3:20, he's supporting her, but by the end of the section at 3:30, he's left her again to go explore.

    Part 4: In this section the prince returns to his planet and his rose. During his travels he realized how much she means to him and that she truly is special, so he returns to take care of her. This is the most upbeat music, and the "happiest" section because both the prince and the rose have what they desire. Think of it as kind of frolicking about! (Although in the actual story, we don't know if the prince made it back to his planet.)

    Disclaimer: This is my best effort to explain how I see it. I have no clue if this is how they see it, and I'm not offended if others have different opinions! But maybe this will help you?

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