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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    When levels are lost due to errors it is usually because one of the partners lost control of the edge (resulting in 3-turns rather than twizzles), which costs them rotations.
    This is what I thought happened and why I don't understand how B/S could've gotten a level 4. They definitely seemed to lose control of an edge.

  2. #142
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    So the GPF is a week away. I took time yeaterday to watch a few of the Grand Prix events again.
    I still think C/L are not getting the credit for their choreography.
    I still thing D/W are getting over-marked.
    I still think W/P were the true winners in Russia BUT this may work in their favour for the GPF's.
    V/M will have to step up their game & REALLY go for it.

  3. #143
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    PashaFan, agree on everything. Not exactly on W-P, though, as they did drop those levels in the short dance? But I agree that it will have a political impact regardless. I wish it weren't the case. If V-M go for it, I can see them taking this title for the first time. Unlike last year, the problem here is that they are not getting levels on two lifts on the FD. If they are solid and skate well, they might take it.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golightly View Post
    PashaFan, agree on everything. Not exactly on W-P, though, as they did drop those levels in the short dance? But I agree that it will have a political impact regardless. I wish it weren't the case. If V-M go for it, I can see them taking this title for the first time. Unlike last year, the problem here is that they are not getting levels on two lifts on the FD. If they are solid and skate well, they might take it.
    But when you coach is also your greatest rivals coach, how much can you trust them to do the best for you ?.
    I think V/M needed to change coaches for this season. Marina does not seem to be helping them to get higher levels.
    On the subject of W/P, I think that they were so much better than B/S in the free dance that they should have clawed the points back that they lost in the SD.
    The W/P threads seem to think that if the judging was fair that they should win Bronze in Sochi & the only reason they would not is if the judges were wrong.
    This makes me upset because there are 8 or 9 couples who can compete on a even level with W/P & even beat them with fair judging.
    Give the likes of C/L, P/B, I/K & others some credit.

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by PashaFan View Post
    But when you coach is also your greatest rivals coach, how much can you trust them to do the best for you ?.
    I think V/M needed to change coaches for this season. Marina does not seem to be helping them to get higher levels.
    On the subject of W/P, I think that they were so much better than B/S in the free dance that they should have clawed the points back that they lost in the SD.
    The W/P threads seem to think that if the judging was fair that they should win Bronze in Sochi & the only reason they would not is if the judges were wrong.
    This makes me upset because there are 8 or 9 couples who can compete on a even level with W/P & even beat them with fair judging.
    Give the likes of C/L, P/B, I/K & others some credit.
    I agree, I think P-B are very much in this, for instance. They are more solid technically, not to mention better dancers.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by PashaFan View Post
    This makes me upset because there are 8 or 9 couples who can compete on a even level with W/P & even beat them with fair judging.
    Give the likes of C/L, P/B, I/K & others some credit.
    8 or 9? I'd say there are 5 couples who can compete for bronze - W/P, P/B, B/S, I/K and C/L. Sure, Chock/Bates beat I/K at the last Worlds and W/P at the World Team Trophy. And Shibutanis have beaten I/K for several times. But that doesn't mean that C/B or S/S can compete for the Olympic bronze, because W/P and I/K were far from their best when they were beaten by those teams, while C/B and S/S were close (or at least closer) to their best. I don't think C/B or S/S currently have the potential to score over a 100 in the FD. So, I wouldn't call that competing on an even level. Anyway, who are the two or three remaining couples that can compete with W/P in your opinion? Riazanova/Tkachenko, Zhiganshina/Gazsi and Hubbell/Donohue who are not better than C/B and S/S, and won't probably even be on the team? Paul/Islam?

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by PashaFan View Post
    But when you coach is also your greatest rivals coach, how much can you trust them to do the best for you ?.
    And yet, surprisingly- neither couple has left, so they both clearly trust her a lot.

  8. #148
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    But when you coach is also your greatest rivals coach, how much can you trust them to do the best for you ?.
    I think V/M needed to change coaches for this season. Marina does not seem to be helping them to get higher levels.
    Whereas Igor would probably have fixed this long ago. I was surprised that both teams stayed with Marina when Igor left to set up his own program across town. The more even these teams became, the more it seemed like they should have different coaches.

    8 or 9? I'd say there are 5 couples who can compete for bronze - W/P, P/B, B/S, I/K and C/L.
    I'd agree with this list (though I still think I/K are getting overmarked and belong here more by politiks than merit). I think the others are seen as a notch below for now. I suppose one of the others could sneak onto the podium if we have a weird communal splat fest like in the 06 ODs.

  9. #149
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    Strange things can happen at the Olympics. Look at Salt Lake City. I thought Irina/Ilia would have been dumped after a poor showing at the Euros but they cleaned up their OD & started getting fantastic marks & Shae-Lyn/Victor who beat Marina/Gwendal in the GPF were the one's who got dumped.
    By the time Sochi comes around a lot could have gone on. Couples change their programs, get injured or have poor form.
    For me, the only couple who can walk in to Sochi confident of the judges backing is D/W.
    I would love to think that the judging will be fair but with what has gone on in the Grand Prix Events you never know.

  10. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by PashaFan View Post
    Strange things can happen at the Olympics. Look at Salt Lake City. I thought Irina/Ilia would have been dumped after a poor showing at the Euros but they cleaned up their OD & started getting fantastic marks & Shae-Lyn/Victor who beat Marina/Gwendal in the GPF were the one's who got dumped.
    Shae-Lyn&Vicor had bad programs that season. What happened ta the GPF was ... funny. I remember Anissina saying how "Canadians had more energy that night". Oh how I love coded 6.0 judging. At least we knew who gave which mark.

    They got kicked off the podium by falling on a lift they fell on 3 years prior (Worlds 99) and they had it as their last second move so they ended the program on the ice whcih took them 0.2 points.

    Lobacheva and Averbukh were inured that season and changed their FD in Sep 2001 so Euros was their test competition.

    Maybe this time also whoever wins bronze at GPF will be like Drobiazko&Vanagas in 2002 dumped at the Olympics.
    As of March 2013 - no longer scared of TAHbKA or Andrey aka Pushkin

  11. #151
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    I think the GPF will tell us a lot about what the judges are looking for come Sochi.
    B/S need to make some major changes to their FD. It was just a mess at COR. They can do so much better. I loved their FD last season.

  12. #152
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    I wondered about I/K's free dance lifts. In two of them it looks like Elena is sitting on Nikita's shoulders. But that would be illegal right ? Now so far the judges didn‘t seem to mind but what if they are in a bad mood or try to appease the public after the latest controversies ? I would hate for I/K to lose points because of something that they could easily avoid.

  13. #153

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    I think that the ISU dance tech committee needs to define "sitting" and "shoulders," and "back," if they want to have their rule about no sitting on shoulders or back be usable for disallowing some or all of a lift, considering the stuff they have allowed in the past. It isn't fair to all the teams to have it be so fuzzy, and it will be particularly unfair if their nonenforcement of the rule in the past inspires some team to include a questionable move, which some tech panel suddenly decides is illegal, at, say, the Olympics.

    Which of their 3 lifts particularly worried you, Pashafan?

    In their combination lift, it looks like she sits on one shoulder, facing forward, before she hits her position, and then she sits back down on one shoulder for a short bit before starting the rotational part of the combination:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBDWI...etailpage#t=85

    And in the lift where Nikita has one knee on the ice, she also moves through a sitting position
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBDWI...tailpage#t=111

    And there is even a transitory sit on shoulders moment in the rotation lift
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBDWI...tailpage#t=166

    I think that the tech panel should include a "for more than 1 second" limitation on sitting. That would make these transitional moves be clearly legal.

  14. #154

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    In I/K's case she always has another contact point for support in the lift and is always moving through the position so I'd argue that you can't define it as sitting. They've done it infront of 3 different judging panels this season and had no problems, so I'd be very surprised if it was called illegal now.

    V/M had what is to me a clear sitting on shoulders moment in their FD last year: http://youtu.be/o1Oa39Uojj0?t=5m32s, but as far as I can recall never had problems? Or is it different as she is facing backwards?

  15. #155
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    I believe (can't prove it though!) that sitting on the shoulders rule was meant to prevent the pairs-type lifts where the lady sometimes literally sits on the man's shoulder. (Given that ice dance also doesn't allow over the head lifts, etc. It seems to be in that spirit.) I don't think any of these very brief transitions was meant to be encompassed. Surely I/K's team sought clarification (or was already certain) before putting 3 lifts in which encompass some interpretation of that rule. As for V/M's Carmen lift, her butt (on which she would "sit") was not on his shoulders. She was basically supporting herself with her legs and core strength. The rule doesn't say "the lady should not drape her legs on the man's shoulders." (Although it might in the future...) Anyway, as last minute changes go, V/M "heard through the grapevine" that the judges were going to call their goose lift illegal because of her dismount and did have to change it at the last minute (after they had already been competing it that way.) And the way things have been going so far this season with all of the fun? surprises, I'd say maybe no team is 100% safe from new found rules/ applications.

  16. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by morqet View Post
    In I/K's case she always has another contact point for support in the lift and is always moving through the position so I'd argue that you can't define it as sitting. They've done it infront of 3 different judging panels this season and had no problems, so I'd be very surprised if it was called illegal now.

    V/M had what is to me a clear sitting on shoulders moment in their FD last year: http://youtu.be/o1Oa39Uojj0?t=5m32s, but as far as I can recall never had problems? Or is it different as she is facing backwards?
    And that's why I'd like to see what "sitting" and "shoulders" are defined, preferably with a 1 sec limit to avoid arguing about transitional movements.

    But that's not how it reads now.

    Tessa was sitting -if you use the dictionary.com def which involves having your weight rest on your thighs or buttocks (in her case, thighs) on Scott's shoulders
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sit

    The part about her "core" is pretty laughable. Anybody sitting on a stool or backless chair of any kind, including somebody's shoulders, is held sitting upright by their core.

    On the other hand, I can find you another dictionary that only mentions buttocks in conjunction with sitting.

    Several posters have postulated that facing forward sitting on shoulders is somehow different than facing backward sitting on shoulders. That's possible.

    But the rule does not specify at this time. And that is why clarification is needed.

    Elena's buttocks were for sure on Nikita's shoulder twice, with her facing forward, and that's what was bearing the majority of her weight. Is it different because it was one shoulder? Or because it was too short a transition?

    Again, clarify the rule before some poor team gets marked down and hasn't a clue why.

    Like all those skaters (and Johnny Weir) who thought flutzing was bad, but lipping was just fine, and it all changed between one year and the next, I'd hate to see dancers led down the primrose path by the ISU without some warning. I would hope the ISU might, you know, clarify the rules before there are any rude surprises.

    All the elite teams are skilled enough & smart enough to avoid such illegal positions, if someone will only tell them what positions those are, and how they are defined.

  17. #157
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    I don't think the core part is laughable at all. Sit with your ass on a stool and then sit with your ass hanging off the stool and tell me there isn't a difference in how you utilize your core.

  18. #158

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    There's no difference at all for me. In either case, if I relaxed my core, I'd fall over.

  19. #159
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    There is most certainly a difference. It's not even debatable.

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by DORISPULASKI View Post
    There's no difference at all for me. In either case, if I relaxed my core, I'd fall over.
    Physics reads this and it sure finds it laughable. Not the same contact, not the same support, not even the same center of gravity. Since you're so fond of Wikipedia, you might want to check. Weight balance (and transfer) doesn't work like that. Especially when the object is moving.

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