View Poll Results: Can she medal in Sochi ?

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  • Yes

    201 75.85%
  • No

    32 12.08%
  • 4th place

    32 12.08%
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  1. #81

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    I think a lot of posters here are missing the point of the poll- "CAN she win a medal in Sochi?" it has nothing to do with individual likes or dislikes (and I too have participated in that like/dislike or love/hate game- LOL). My answer to the question is yes, she can win a bronze if several top skaters make numerous mistakes and she skates clean. I don't think she can win a gold with even a clean skate, but a bronze should be within her reach, and with a lot of luck even a silver (much harder though). I am seeing some strong opinions against her, which may be a good thing. IMO she is viewed as a serious contender, or she wouldn't invite such strong criticism. It's all good. It will be interesting to see how she develops over the years. This entire season she is going to be a very young skater with great potential, but good enough to perhaps win a bronze.

  2. #82
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    I hope the next quad is Lipnitskaia and Radianova fighting for most of the golds. I don't like Gold, she has no artistry, gets inflated PCS she doesn't deserve, and seems to be a headcase too.

  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzytalent View Post
    She cant win the gold. Yu Na Kim already has that locked up.
    Really? How can we be certain that she will be there? You never know what's going to happen. She might be injured. Or the week before the competition she may have a flu and then skate while not being completely alright... I would say that it is extremely likely that Yu-Na will win, but I would never dare to say that she has it locked up. It is still too early to award the medals.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Whilst I don't like Lipnitskaia's skating at all, I really admire her mental fortitude, her self-awareness and her no-bullshit approach. Interviews with her are always very fascinating.
    I couldn't stand her skating last year. She was way too cold and mechanic, her choreography was terrible and she skated as if there was no music playing. Luckily she has improved and is connecting to the music/choreography a little more BUT she still needs to continue to work on really projecting and feeling the music...she's better than last year though and, to me, that's progress.

    ITA about her mental fortitude, self-awareness and no bullshit attitude. She's very blunt and honest and I love that. It definitely fits into her competitive attitude as well. Reversing the results b/w her and Gracie, I think if Julia had won the SP and had the lead and a clear shot at gold in SC and ended up unraveling in her FS she'd have been absolutely pissed. I admire Gracie for taking the glass-half-full approach to her results in SC but I can't imagine Julia saying "I'm happy with the way I skated" after a performance like that, or "I'll take bronze any day"...especially when the gold was right there for the taking. It's just the difference in their competitiveness and their mindset...That's not the kind of skater she is. You can tell when she goes out there and skates, she's trying to win every time regardless of who she's up against. I totally dig that about her...

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    Really? How can we be certain that she will be there? You never know what's going to happen. She might be injured. Or the week before the competition she may have a flu and then skate while not being completely alright... I would say that it is extremely likely that Yu-Na will win, but I would never dare to say that she has it locked up. It is still too early to award the medals.
    Well if she somehow doesn't win it (very unlikely as you said), it wont be Julia beating her, that is for sure. And I like Julia more than Kim, but that is just being realistic. Julia doesn't have the skill set to beat Kim even an a slightly off day right now.

  6. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzytalent View Post
    I hope the next quad is Lipnitskaia and Radianova fighting for most of the golds. I don't like Gold, she has no artistry, gets inflated PCS she doesn't deserve, and seems to be a headcase too.
    I am sure Julia and Elena will have other young skaters challenging them in the next quad. If at all, it's going to make other young ladies even more inspired and hungrier. You can't write off Liza, Adelina, and others either. They are around 16-17 right now and they too will mature. I wish Russia had 5 spots at worlds next year, and they have just 2 at the Sochi Olympics.

    I am not crazy about Gracie, but I believe she too can develop over the years and challenge the Russian ladies. Osmond from Canada can't be forgotten either. It's great for FS. I do believe Gracie was overhyped last year, and our media will continue to do that. She will have to learn how to stay focused in spite of it.
    Last edited by Vash01; 10-31-2013 at 04:55 PM.

  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzytalent View Post
    I hope the next quad is Lipnitskaia and Radianova fighting for most of the golds. I don't like Gold, she has no artistry, gets inflated PCS she doesn't deserve, and seems to be a headcase too.
    I really like both Lipnitskaia and Radionova; each has their own strengths and each of them stands out in a different way. But one has to be realistic. Russia has (and will have within the next 4 years) far too many great female skaters and there is the limit per country. While I hope that both girls will dominate in the next quad, there is a big chance that one (or both) of them may not even be sent to Europeans and worlds in a few years time. There are now 4 junior girls who qualified to JGPF and will be eligible in 2 years time. Plus there is a few semi-decent (Sotskova, Ogoreltseva, Yushenko) who did not qualify but may progress enough next season. And there is a few of them who are patiently waiting to be old enough to even compete at junior level; some of those will also be eligible for the Olympics 2018... I hate limits per country and I wish some of the good ones would change countries because I want to see them developing and competing internationally.

  8. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzytalent View Post
    Well if she somehow doesn't win it (very unlikely as you said), it wont be Julia beating her, that is for sure. And I like Julia more than Kim, but that is just being realistic. Julia doesn't have the skill set to beat Kim even an a slightly off day right now.
    I didn't mean to say that Julia has a chance of beating YuNa. What I meant was that there is always some (tiny) chance that she could get gold. YuNa may not be competing and Carolina/Mao may mess up. If stars align correctly for her...Saying that, there is also a chance that Julia may not even be at Olympics.
    Last edited by hanca; 10-31-2013 at 06:38 PM.

  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    I didn't mean to say that Julia has a chance of beating YuNa. What I meant was that there is always some (tiny) chance that she could get gold. YuNa may not be competing and Karolina/Mao may mess up. If starts align correctly for her...Saying that, there is also a chance that Julia may not even be at Olympics.
    That's realistic. We don't know how Julia will do rest of the season and/or at the Russian nationals. I just hope she stays healthy and skates her best. I am going to feel very disappointed for the #3 Russian lady- whoever she may be- for missing the Olympics. Right now I would like to see Julia and Liza on the Russian team but that's just a wish.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzytalent View Post
    I don't like Gold, she has no artistry, gets inflated PCS she doesn't deserve, and seems to be a headcase too.
    Fortunately 'artistry' is not part of the judging criteria.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Fortunately 'artistry' is not part of the judging criteria.
    OK Gold has no presentation or anything that goes beyond strong jumps and ok spins. She may improve but right now the USFSA must be paying some good dough to get those PCS for her, even when she mistakes as well.

  12. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Fortunately 'artistry' is not part of the judging criteria.
    How do you define "artistry" (I'm interested in any opinions)? The word "artistry" isn't in the PCS criteria but I think the areas that people consider "artistry" probably are captured somewhere (likewise "maturity," which I argued wasn't a judging criteria, but I think people use it as code for certain areas that could be reflected positively in the PCS. However, a certain "immaturity" or youthful exuberance can be fun to watch and interpret certain types of program better than "maturity" would, and valuing "maturity" in and of itself seems biased against younger or young-looking skaters. I don't see how "artistry" could be a negative, or even "not positive" in the PCS though).

    I disagree with those who say Gracie doesn't have good presentation though. She's not flawless or up with the all-time greats in that respect by any means at this point, but I think her presentation is generally quite good.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzytalent View Post
    OK Gold has no presentation or anything that goes beyond strong jumps and ok spins. She may improve but right now the USFSA must be paying some good dough to get those PCS for her, even when she mistakes as well.
    Gold has improved her posture and her arm movements are much softer. Both of her programs have a lot of upper body movement throughout and some transitions also. Her basic skating is very decent as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by RFOS View Post
    How do you define "artistry" (I'm interested in any opinions)?
    It's a weasel word which means everything and nothing. That's precisely the problem.

  14. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFOS View Post
    I disagree with those who say Gracie doesn't have good presentation though. She's not flawless or up with the all-time greats in that respect by any means at this point, but I think her presentation is generally quite good.
    Well she's 18. Angela Nikodinov, Joannie Rochette, Brian Boitano, Shizuka Awakawa were all rather bland and awkward skaters at that age as well.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Fortunately 'artistry' is not part of the judging criteria.
    Fortunately? I would love to have some kind of an "artistic impression" score in the judging. Subjective, I know, blah, blah, but without it, we end up with dull or simply dreadful programs like V/T's JCS winning medals and titles. You can interpret or "sell" a terrible program convincingly, but that doesn't make that program artistic in any way.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    It's [artistry] a weasel word which means everything and nothing. That's precisely the problem.
    I would put it somewhat differently. Artistry is an architectonic word in skating, fundamentally necessary, without which most of the PCS program becomes an arbitrary grab-bag of unrelated features that has no internal logic and coherence, no fundamental justification or ground whatever.

    What "artistry" is not, however, is an operational criteria which is directly applied by judges in PCS scoring. That happens at a higher level of granularity, as represented by the component definitions and bullet points.

    IMO, any serious reading of the IJS bullets shows that the only thing that gives meaning and sense to a very large proportion of the bullets for P/E, I, and C is the concept of artistry (and specifically as a second cousin of dance, in the way that whales are taxonomically related to hippos).

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Gold has improved her posture and her arm movements are much softer. Both of her programs have a lot of upper body movement throughout and some transitions also. Her basic skating is very decent as well.
    I am warming up to her after Skate Canada. Not even the short program music bothers me.

    The choreographic sequence though, shows exactly what she lacks - maturity and attention to detail.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzytalent View Post
    I hope the next quad is Lipnitskaia and Radianova fighting for most of the golds.
    Weren't we this excited about Sot and Tuk about 3 years ago? Time will tell.

    I would love more competition from Osmond, Gold, Cesario, Edmunds, Chen, Li etc. Some of the Japanese and Korean juniors look promising too. Dominance can't be exciting.

  19. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Other than 2010 Worlds I dont remember a competition she ever made more than 2 mistakes which is where my 2 mistakes comment came from:


    2011 Worlds- 2 mistakes, a near fall on triple lutz in short, and a singled flip in long

    .
    Yu Na had 2 mistakes in her long program in 2011--the singled flip and also, she popped the second jump on her 3sal(?)-2t combo. This, by the way, is my favorite performance by Yu Na, despite the mistakes.
    Last edited by giselle23; 11-01-2013 at 06:11 PM.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by mia joy View Post
    Fortunately? I would love to have some kind of an "artistic impression" score in the judging. Subjective, I know, blah, blah, but without it, we end up with dull or simply dreadful programs like V/T's JCS winning medals and titles. You can interpret or "sell" a terrible program convincingly, but that doesn't make that program artistic in any way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robeye View Post
    I would put it somewhat differently. Artistry is an architectonic word in skating, fundamentally necessary, without which most of the PCS program becomes an arbitrary grab-bag of unrelated features that has no internal logic and coherence, no fundamental justification or ground whatever.

    What "artistry" is not, however, is an operational criteria which is directly applied by judges in PCS scoring. That happens at a higher level of granularity, as represented by the component definitions and bullet points.

    IMO, any serious reading of the IJS bullets shows that the only thing that gives meaning and sense to a very large proportion of the bullets for P/E, I, and C is the concept of artistry (and specifically as a second cousin of dance, in the way that whales are taxonomically related to hippos).
    I see what both of you are saying.

    My point is: There are words with more precise meanings relating to the 'presentation' aspect of programs. To give a few examples: Coherence, concept, purpose, creativity, originality. If you use one of those words, it puts you on a similar page and you can then make arguments for and against, facilitating discussion.

    If you say 'artistry,' I don't even know what you mean.

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