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  1. #41
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    Gordeeva/Grinkov, Witt, Boitano, Plushenko, Kwan, Torvill & Dean, John Curry, Dick Button, Yagudin, Shen & Zhao, Sonja Henie, Grischuk & Platov

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    Championships are awarded by judges, who score by the rulebook and don't need to be wowed. My point was that she was not as popular nor held in such high regard by fans in other parts of the world. I think legendary is defined more broadly than titles. Kwan was an excellent textbook skater, remarkable for her jumping consistency, but she didn't really bring anything new to skating nor change the sport in any way.
    She might not be as popular in other countries as in the US but I disagree that she is not held in high regard. She has been listed as an idol for many young skaters around the world. And to be the star of American ladies skating when it was at its peak for so long should mean something.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by numbers123 View Post
    To me, legendary would mean someone who by their skating accomplishment changed the face of figure skating in their time to affect this current status of skating - that would take us back to the early, early parts of skating. (these are just the ones off the top of my head, I am sure I could think of many, many more)

    Axel Paulson: Axel jump as well as most of his career
    Alois Lutz: Lutz jump
    Sonia Heine: enough said
    Donald Jackson: first triple flip in competition, although some dispute that
    Dick Button: for a variety of things, Double Axel, commentator
    Katerina Witt: triple jump in competition, costume rule, etc
    Midori Ito: first triple axel in competition by a woman
    Kurt Browning: first ratified quad in competition
    Janet Lynn: changed figure skating through the eventual demise of figures in skating
    Zajic: jump rules
    B/S - S/P: scandal changed skating from 6.0 to the CoP
    Shen/Zhou: changing the face of pairs skating in China
    Brian Botanio: the 'tano Lutz (but I am not sure about that one - if someone was doing that before Brian made it mainstream)
    Torvil and Dean: Bolero, unanimous 6.0s for presentation
    Tim Goebel: first man to do multiple quads in one program
    Michelle Kwan: mostly because of her longevity, but also because of her numerous titles in her career
    Tara Lipinski: Is she one of the reasons behind the age restrictions at Olympics?
    Lucinda Ruh: fastest spins I ever saw

    However, some of you define legendary in a different manner. Most of what I posted are North American in nature, I am sure that other posters from around the world could add their "firsts" or changes in figure skating
    How about the first to do a Layback Spin, Camel Spin, and One-footed Axel? How about the first lady to do a double jump?

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerobicidal View Post
    Irina Movchan
    Pretty though, wasn't she?
    I hear outside a million panicking birds, and know even out there comfort is done with; it has shattered even the stars, this creature at last come home to me.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    How about the first to do a Layback Spin, Camel Spin, and One-footed Axel? How about the first lady to do a double jump?
    Do you have those names?

  6. #46
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    Tim Goebel legendary? Ummm no. It's not like he was the first man to do a quad either.

  7. #47
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    Note that I said multiple quads in one program. You might not like his skating, but he did do something that changed figure skating. That's my definition.

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by numbers123 View Post
    Do you have those names?
    If we don't know their names, then are they really legendary?

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by numbers123 View Post
    Do you have those names?
    Only one name is required to answer those questions: Cecilia Colledge.

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by numbers123 View Post
    Note that I said multiple quads in one program. You might not like his skating, but he did do something that changed figure skating. That's my definition.
    IIRC, Guo Zhengxin was the first to land 2 quads in a program at 1997 Worlds (both quad toes). Min Zhang landed the first quad in the short program, and Kevin Reynolds was the first to land 2 quads in the short program. Vise & Trent landed the first throw quad in international competition. I wouldn't consider any of them legendary for those feats alone, although they should rightfully be proud of those accomplishments.

    Tim was the first to land 3 quads in a program at Skate America 1999. I'm not sure whether he was also the first to land 2 DIFFERENT quads in a program.

    Kurt Browning landed the first ratified quad and I WOULD consider him legendary, but not for that reason.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFOS View Post
    If we don't know their names, then are they really legendary?
    I figured someone would, which is why I asked the question.

    My personal definition was who impacted figure skating by doing something that changed the look of skating. For most of those accomplishments, I have to think that it might have been a matter of chance. Who was willing to take that chance and who accomplished it first. So someone might not like Tim G's skating, he was the first to have ratified multiple quads in one program. Maybe if Evengi skated earlier in the season he might have been the one who changed it. Sometimes it happens by chance or draw or whatever.

    I stand corrected on the multiple quads. That's another thing that can be fluid in my list.

    And in my short list, I left off Ulrich Salchow
    Last edited by numbers123; 10-27-2013 at 11:56 PM.

  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by falling_dance View Post
    Only one name is required to answer those questions: Cecilia Colledge.
    Very cool, if true, though I recall reading that one theory on the camel spin was that it came from the name Campbell, so I thought she might have done it before. Did any male skaters perform a camel spin before her? (Not trying to be sexist and assume that anything a woman could do a man must have done before, but competitive skating was male-only for a while before women started competing so they had a head start). I do remember Dick Button being named as the first to do a FLYING camel.

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFOS View Post
    Did any male skaters perform a camel spin before her?
    If they had, I wouldn't have posted as I did. (Or are you leaving open the possibility that she might have devised it for someone else?) The Campbell attribution is new to me (which means nothing, as I'm no expert), so I'll just pretend that the Australian skater is Leibniz and Colledge is Newton in the case of that spin.

  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by numbers123 View Post
    Do you have those names?
    Quote Originally Posted by falling_dance View Post
    Only one name is required to answer those questions: Cecilia Colledge.
    Which is why I already tried to add her to the list. Cecilia was really great!

  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by falling_dance View Post
    If they had, I wouldn't have posted as I did. (Or are you leaving open the possibility that she might have devised it for someone else?) The Campbell attribution is new to me (which means nothing, as I'm no expert), so I'll just pretend that the Australian skater is Leibniz and Colledge is Newton in the case of that spin.
    Perhaps! Wikipedia mentions both names and also that Gillis Grafstrom had a variation that did precede Cecilia's, but Cecilia was considered the inventor of the "regular" camel spin.

    Now who was the first man to do a layback spin?

  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFOS View Post
    Very cool, if true, though I recall reading that one theory on the camel spin was that it came from the name Campbell, so I thought she might have done it before. Did any male skaters perform a camel spin before her? (Not trying to be sexist and assume that anything a woman could do a man must have done before, but competitive skating was male-only for a while before women started competing so they had a head start). I do remember Dick Button being named as the first to do a FLYING camel.
    Well, at the very least, Cecelia Colledge was the first to perform the camel spin in competition, and, either way, this comment would be sexist because this point of contention detracts from the contributions of women, in general, by giving credit to neither woman.

    Furthermore, Cecelia Colledge did invent the layback spin by training with a contortionist, which is well documented even down to the contortionist's name and location, and was the first to perform it in competition, therefore contributing the CoP as much as any man.

    And, yes, yes, Uncle Dick was the first to perform a flying camel spin IN COMPETITION, a variation of a preexisting element, like Cecelia Colledge was the first to perform a one-footed Axel jump by anybody, man or woman. However, there was not contention between these two; Uncle Dick and Cecelia knew each other through the Skating Club of Boston, and were friends . . . despite footage of Cecelia performing a flying camel with dated art deco technique outside of competition. ( I think that spin was also level 3 or 4. I can't tell if there was a change of edge.)

    Cecelia was so driven to outperform Sonia Henie, who had a death grip on eligible skating despite probably being technically ineligible due to receiving material gain under the table, that she was driven to perform freeskates that included more difficulty than even men were performing, including being the first woman to perform a double jump.

    *Gus Lussi claimed that an Australian skater with the last name Campbell invented the Camel Spin but did not do it in competition. However, the same can be side about almost all elements, except maybe the layback spin. Often ineligible show skaters would perform elements, then an eligible amateur would replicate it in competition. The ISU used to only recognize elements PERFORMED IN INTERNATIONAL COMPETITION, with the understanding that no international competitions existed except their competitions, even if a competing sanctioning body might have existed. Now, the ISU will apparently "homologate" elements performed in sanctioned competition of member federations with video evidence.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 10-28-2013 at 03:10 AM.

  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFOS View Post
    Now who was the first man to do a layback spin?
    Viktor Petrenko.

    I have no idea.

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by falling_dance View Post
    Viktor Petrenko.
    And, hell, that was an ugly attempt at a layback.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 10-28-2013 at 03:16 AM.

  19. #59

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    Did Toller Cranston ever do one? I wouldn't be surprised if he had.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fandango View Post
    ...among skating fans worldwide, whatever that means (to you)???

    Personally I'd say: Sonja Henie, Dick Button, The Protopov's, Irina Rodnina & her partners, Toller Cranston, John Curry, Torvill & Dean, Katarina Witt, Kurt Browning, Gordeeva & Grinkov, Alexei Yagudin, Evgeny Plushenko, Shen & Zhao, Yuna Kim.

    ???
    I would add Janet Lynn to that list. She spoke of returning to Japan in the 90s and still being famous there, and Japan wasnt even a huge skating country at the time.

    Unlike others I would keep Yagudin on. I actually have more doubts about Plushenko than I do Yagudin. I am not sure if Plushenko is a big deal outside of Europe. Yagudin Americanilized himself so is still very famous and loved over here, moreso than Plushenko who is mostly vilified in this part of the World these days. Yagudin has also toured and built up more of a folllowing in Asia than Plushenko has.

    I would also leave Kwan off, just as you have. I always got the impression she was only a huge star in North America. In other parts of the World she was liked and respected while competing, but not a huge star all the same. Now retired even less so.

    I thought of including Irina Slutskaya, but she is the opposite of Kwan. She has a big following in Russia, and to some degree in Europe, but less so in the other parts of the World. Respected and liked, but not a star, outside of her own territory.

    I might add Robin Cousins to that list.

    Definitely would add Midori Ito who has a huge following.

    So I would go with: Henie, Button, Prottoppovs, Irina Rodnina and the Alexeis, Cranston, Curry, Cousins, Lynn, Ito, T&D, Klimova & Ponomarenko, Witt, Browning, G&G, Yagudin, Shen & Zhao, Kim, and maybe Plushenko.

    Baiul had a large following in both Europe and North America for quite awhile. Not sure about Asia, and with time she has become more forgotten so wouldnt include her.

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