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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    Korpi legendary? Maybe her beauty is legendary but not her skating. Joubert had a good run too but he's not an all time great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shyjosie View Post
    Is there any reliable definition of "legend"? It's a big word. Does it mean legendary in a common sense, like having achieved something for the sport that was/is absolutely unique?

    Toller Cranston's "Ice Cream" contains imo who could be considered legendary.
    I would define it as someone whose skating transcends time and space. That is why we have skaters from different countries and different eras on the list. It's not a popularity contest, like whose skating is being watched the most.

    It's someone that left a lasting impression on the sport by doing something extraordinary- e.g. The Protopopovs changed pairs skating forever, Elvis Stojko made the quad jump routine, Midori Ito's triple axel, Torville-Dean's row of 6.0's for Bolero (a moment etched in skating history). Not every legend will be known to a casual fan, but the real fans will remember them and/or try to dig up their tapes or youtubes to watch what they did.

    I usually do not include any of the current skaters on the list because their careers are still developing. One exception, however. Plushenko has already achieved the legendary status in spite of being a 'current' skater. His comeback in the 2010 Olympics and his efforts to skate in his 4th Olympics - yes, the efforts- are legendary. In the quad-jump era, I have not seen a skater with such longevity, and such passion for the sport that he undergoes numerous surgeries and rehabs just to be able to compete.

    Currently there are skaters that could become legends- V&M, Chan, Yu na Kim, and possibly D&W (they are almost there, IMO). If D&W win the OGM in Sochi, they will definitely be legendary, in case their two world titles are not.

    Some skaters are legends in their own countries, but not worldwide, and that is very understandable.

    The bottomline is there is no fixed definition of a legend. Each one makes up his/her own definition. Some are limited to the country (like someone mentioned Korpi and Joubert). For a broader definition I would go for a wider fan base and a very long time frame to define it.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    No you are wrong. He has a lots of fans since 1999 for example in 2000 or in 2001 a japanese fan group travelled in St. Petersburg, they wanted to meet with Plushy, and they spent an entire day with him in that beautiful city.
    Look at this video. Plushy was only 16, at NHK Trophy, he was 11 minutes on the ice, the crowd didn't want to he finish his skating. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8hjyJ1dClI ( at the and of the video Plu with the little Miki.) And one year later he became a young man, the women went crazy for him http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aGZXEs4dIE Would like to see more? I know many Japanese women begin to learn Russian because of him. You believe me, I know what I'm talking about.
    I'm not ciocio, but my two cents: There are avid fans for each star who follow his/her career from the start. It's those same avid fans who upload close encounter fan cams on Youtube, and they don't necessarily represent a broader fan base. No doubt Plushenko has been popular outside of Europe, especially among Japanese female fans for a long time, but at the same time I guess many of his fans in Japan started following his career since Turin (not you or your friends, obviously). Number of contemporay followers in a certain segment or age/gender group of a market doesn't necessarily translate into the status of the figure in the broad scheme of things.

    It's not that I don't consider Plushenko as a legend in figure skating.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by pat decaro View Post
    I'm not ciocio, but my two cents: There are avid fans for each star who follow his/her career from the start. It's those same avid fans who upload close encounter fan cams on Youtube, and they don't necessarily represent a broader fan base. No doubt Plushenko has been popular outside of Europe, especially among Japanese female fans for a long time, but at the same time I guess many of his fans in Japan started following his career since Turin (not you or your friends, obviously). Number of contemporay followers in a certain segment or age/gender group of a market doesn't necessarily translate into the status of the figure in the broad scheme of things.

    It's not that I don't consider Plushenko as a legend in figure skating.
    Probably. I don't know his every fans in Japan, but I can show his incredible popularity in that country today, where many people go crazy for figure skating. Thank God!! Plushy has more than 123 000 followers on twitter, most of them are Japanese, I think more like Russian. Oh I almost forget, Plushy has own watch Ulysse Nardin Champion Plushenko http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9Gm-9Jd1u4 he advertised it in Japan in summer of 2012 ( the price: 11 000$)
    Last edited by lala; 10-29-2013 at 06:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pat decaro View Post
    Maybe. The number of fan cams of Plushenko on Youtube from Asian (mainly Japanese female) fans may mean that those fans are more attached to him since he competed in the last two Olympics.

    I think both are legends. Some might find Plushenko more majestic and charismatic (hence the "Czar"), but I think Yagudin left more memorable programs. I believe Yagudin's programs will draw more viewers in the long run, compared to Plushenko's. I hope Japanese Plushy fans would not erase Yagudin program videos with high number hits on Youtube!
    Actually Lala is right because Plushenko has fans in Japan since he was a teenager and he attended competitions there (Japanese fans called him sunny boy for the first time), but obviously since he had a long career some of them forgot him, others discovered him later other rediscovered him when he came back in 2010 and went to his post-2010 shows. I know the Japanese fans upload a lot of videos with Yagudin too, I don't think they will ever be erased, if the account survives, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    Probably. I don't know his every fans in Japan, but I can show his incredible popularity in that country today, where many people go crazy for figure skating. Thank to God!! Plushy has more than 123 000 followers on twitter, most of them are Japanese, I think more like Russian. Oh I almost forget, Plushy has own watch Ulysse Nardin Champion Plushenko http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9Gm-9Jd1u4 he advertised it in Japan in summer of 2012 ( the price: 11 000$)
    You mean that today Plushenko is a legendary skater in Japan, no?

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigB08822 View Post
    Anyone who doesn't put Kwan on their list is either mad because she beat their favs or just doesn't like her skating. Liking her or not, her accomplishments are legendary even without that Olympic gold medal. 9 World medals, 5 World titles, 2 Olympic medals, 9 U.S. National titles during a time when the US produced 2 Olympic champions not named Kwan. Not to mention she never did or said anything to get herself into the least bit of trouble and continues to be extremely respected, almost a decade after her last competition.
    Agreed. And I'd add the fact that she was an inspiration to later greats from other countries (e.g. Yuna Kim) as evidence that she is liked and appreciated by more than just the judges.

    It's important to be able to look beyond one's own preferences. I mean, I've never been a huge fan of Plushenko's skating, but it's obvious to me that his competitive record and influence make him a legend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    That's a bit harsh (comparing him with Guo). I agree that Tim is not legendary, but he was the first US man to land a quad in a competition, and one of the few to land 3 quads in a program. He was a world silver medalist and an Olympic bronze medalist. That's nothing to sneer at. Certainly Guo's accomplishments were nowhere close to Tim's.
    I agree Tim had a far superior career and is a stronger skater than Guo (although Guo was a better overall jumper IMO). However he is just as close to being a complete unknown in skating circles outside of maybe the U.S (and even in the U.S you never hear any talk of him ever these days) as Guo is these days. Being the first to do a quad something on its own is just a novelty, like Vern Taylor's so called first triple axel. Being the first to push a new technical development, do it repeatedly, while winning major titles and being a top skater for a long time with it (Ito and her triple axel, Orser and his triple axel, Browning and Stojko with their quads and Elvis's quad combos, Miki first to do a quad but winning titles with the best and most consistently done ever triple lutz-triple loop instead) are the only way to achieve a real legacy by that means.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I agree Tim had a far superior career and is a stronger skater than Guo (although Guo was a better overall jumper IMO). However he is just as close to being a complete unknown in skating circles outside of maybe the U.S (and even in the U.S you never hear any talk of him ever these days) as Guo is these days. Being the first to do a quad something on its own is just a novelty, like Vern Taylor's so called first triple axel. Being the first to push a new technical development, do it repeatedly, while winning major titles and being a top skater for a long time with it (Ito and her triple axel, Orser and his triple axel, Browning and Stojko with their quads and Elvis's quad combos, Miki first to do a quad but winning titles with the best and most consistently done ever triple lutz-triple loop instead) are the only way to achieve a real legacy by that means.
    I have to disagree with you again. Guo and Goebel are simply not in the same bracket. How many world or Olympic medals did Guo win? I don't even remember that skater, and I don't care if his jumps were better. Goebel was a good skater under the 6.0 system, and I am sure he is better known outside the USA because his name appears multiple times as a podium finisher at the world/Olympic level.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    Korpi legendary? Maybe her beauty is legendary but not her skating. Joubert had a good run too but he's not an all time great.
    I was RESPONDING to Giselle's post. The skaters who I listed are ones who have admitted being inspired by Michelle Kwan.

    Read before you type.

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    The only reason someone would leave Michelle off a list was bc she does not have OGM. But she has everything else and came close - 2 times - to the OGM. Her longevity in the sport - making THREE Olympic teams - pretty much medaling every year at worlds, is unmatched by any skater in any discipline. For anyone to say she should not be on a list of worldwide greats is just a travesty. Someone would only say that if they buy the media hype that OGM defines a great skater. It does not and should not and Michelle is a perfect example of that.

    For 95% of people is the US, if you asked, name one great skater of the last 20 years- Michelle is who you would mention. Michelle defined the sport in the late 90/early 2000s. Indeed, if you asked that question 10 years ago I think most ordinary people in the world not just USA would mention her. Many people may not even know she never got OGM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    Yagudin not legendary? How does his record pale in comparison to Plushenko? Yagudin basically had to retire at 22 so he didn't even hit his peak as a skater and already had 4 World titles and a dominating win at the Olympics. Plushenko's record might not look as good if Yags had kept skating during the next Olympic cycle.

  12. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanette View Post
    I was RESPONDING to Giselle's post. The skaters who I listed are ones who have admitted being inspired by Michelle Kwan.

    Read before you type.
    Susanna Poykio could be added to the list.

  13. #93
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    I generally agree with the original list (in the first post), though I'd add Michelle Kwan (she's become such an icon how can she NOT be included!) and Grishuk/Platov (I hated them throughout the 1998 Olympics thanks to the NBC "fluffs" but have since come to really appreciate them - plus, they did win 2 OGMs, and Pasha was memorable to say the least!).

    I'd personally include both Yagudin and Plushenko, though if I HAD to pick just one I'd go with Plushenko. I loved Yagudin and rooted for him over Plushy during their rivalry and esp. the 2002 Olys, but Plushenko's definitely left more of a legacy in the sport with his quite successful comebacks, sheer determination and UNREAL jumping talent (I covet the athletic side more, so sue me =P). I was pretty annoyed with how the American media vilified him in Vancouver (that's a whole other topic), but he IS quite well known (as far as figure skaters go) and respected in other parts of the world. Actually, even in the U.S., he and Yagudin are like the only skaters other than Kwan that my friends who are no longer into fs and don't know any of the current skaters remember fondly - it was if nothing else a legendary rivalry.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciocio View Post
    You mean that today Plushenko is a legendary skater in Japan, no?


    ( I didn't say Yag isn't popular skater in Japan or everywhere, I said, Plushy is in another cathegory.)
    Last edited by lala; 10-29-2013 at 06:43 AM.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    I would define it as someone whose skating transcends time and space. That is why we have skaters from different countries and different eras on the list. It's not a popularity contest, like whose skating is being watched the most.

    It's someone that left a lasting impression on the sport by doing something extraordinary- e.g. The Protopopovs changed pairs skating forever, Elvis Stojko made the quad jump routine, Midori Ito's triple axel, Torville-Dean's row of 6.0's for Bolero (a moment etched in skating history). Not every legend will be known to a casual fan, but the real fans will remember them and/or try to dig up their tapes or youtubes to watch what they did.

    I usually do not include any of the current skaters on the list because their careers are still developing. One exception, however. Plushenko has already achieved the legendary status in spite of being a 'current' skater. His comeback in the 2010 Olympics and his efforts to skate in his 4th Olympics - yes, the efforts- are legendary. In the quad-jump era, I have not seen a skater with such longevity, and such passion for the sport that he undergoes numerous surgeries and rehabs just to be able to compete.

    Currently there are skaters that could become legends- V&M, Chan, Yu na Kim, and possibly D&W (they are almost there, IMO). If D&W win the OGM in Sochi, they will definitely be legendary, in case their two world titles are not.

    Some skaters are legends in their own countries, but not worldwide, and that is very understandable.

    The bottomline is there is no fixed definition of a legend. Each one makes up his/her own definition. Some are limited to the country (like someone mentioned Korpi and Joubert). For a broader definition I would go for a wider fan base and a very long time frame to define it.
    You made it a lot clearer for me and I absolutely agree that current skaters who are still developing may become legends, but can't yet be considered such.
    You have a point about skaters being legends in their own countries but not internationally. I'd say that Denkova/Staviski will go down in history as the first Bulgarian skaters to win a worlds gold medal (well, they won two in a row!), what makes them legends from the Bulgarian point of view, for sure.

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    Michelle may be the one of the few skaters to not win OGM to be on a list of greats...and that just underscore what a great she is. To be considered among your sports greats without winning the pinnacle trophy is truly an extraordinary accomplishment.

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    IMO when the list of 'legendary' becomes really long, the word loses its meaning.

    Also, I agree that context is important, as in legendary in a country, in the world, or in an era.

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    difficult to say now since I'm a FS fan. But when I started to watch FS back to the late 80's, the legends were :
    Katarina Witt
    Torvill&Dean
    John Curry
    Janet Lynn
    Protopopovs

  19. #99
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    I recall seeing both Yagudin and Plushenko at 98 Worlds and it was immediately obvious to me which was legendary. Side by side during practice it was easy to see that while Yagudin had It, Plushenko had IT.
    But I also do think both of them are considered legendary around the world.
    Have a nice day!

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by immoimeme View Post
    I recall seeing both Yagudin and Plushenko at 98 Worlds and it was immediately obvious to me which was legendary. Side by side during practice it was easy to see that while Yagudin had It, Plushenko had IT.
    But I also do think both of them are considered legendary around the world.
    hm. Plushenko was 15, if you don't remember. His first season in seniors. He won silver in ECH and bronze in WCH.

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