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  1. #21
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    I wish quads weren't such a big deal. Good thing to have, yes, but they really aren't the most exciting part of a program. Max Aaron may have 3 quads in his freeskate and yes, that's very impressive, but he needs serious work on spins, footwork, skating skills, transitions.

    Look at Ryan Bradley and Brandon Mroz - quad cautionary tales. Working on them to the detriment of all else is a terrible idea. Stephane Lambiel had a quad every once in a while but it wasn't the focus of his skating.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by valyrian View Post
    I wish quads weren't such a big deal. Good thing to have, yes, but they really aren't the most exciting part of a program. Max Aaron may have 3 quads in his freeskate and yes, that's very impressive, but he needs serious work on spins, footwork, skating skills, transitions.

    Look at Ryan Bradley and Brandon Mroz - quad cautionary tales. Working on them to the detriment of all else is a terrible idea. Stephane Lambiel had a quad every once in a while but it wasn't the focus of his skating.
    Wasn't Lambiel regularly going for two quads a program during his last seasons?

    Agree with everything else, though.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    Max will be fine. He's had to spend so much time addressing the haters' shrieks about his "lack of artistry" that it doesn't surprise me the quads are a little wonky.
    Yes because pointing out obvious and glaring flaws in somebody's skating = being a 'hater.'

    Quote Originally Posted by valyrian View Post
    I wish quads weren't such a big deal. Good thing to have, yes, but they really aren't the most exciting part of a program. Max Aaron may have 3 quads in his freeskate and yes, that's very impressive, but he needs serious work on spins, footwork, skating skills, transitions.
    You're right of course but to be fair to Aaron, he seems to have worked very hard on improving his presentation since last season.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by valyrian View Post
    Look at Ryan Bradley and Brandon Mroz - quad cautionary tales. Working on them to the detriment of all else is a terrible idea.
    And when the quads fail, they have nothing else to fall back on.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    And when the quads fail, they have nothing else to fall back on.
    I disagree with this: I do.think that Mroz gave a shot to improving his presentation, and people lurve Bradley as a showman and entertainer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post

    You're right of course but to be fair to Aaron, he seems to have worked very hard on improving his presentation since last season.
    ITA. He isn't going to turn into Lambiel overnight, but he's giving a great shot at becoming a fine all-around skater and a good interpreter.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Yes because pointing out obvious and glaring flaws in somebody's skating = being a 'hater.'
    No. But the huge majority of the criticism I saw last season about him was NOT about his edgework, his quality, his spins, or anything like that. It was about his artistry; it was people being critical because he wasn't Jeremy Abbott.

    Now he's worked hard on addressing that, and the focus has switched to his skating skills. Proving that he'll never make everybody happy.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    I disagree with this: I do.think that Mroz gave a shot to improving his presentation, and people lurve Bradley as a showman and entertainer.
    They didn't get the PCS (internationally) even when they land their jumps, and definitely not when they didn't. Very much like the French lady at Skate America. Bradley was wildly entertaining, but it didn't change the fact that his speed, basics and spins were way below par, no less for a US Champion. Mroz's effort showed, but overall he lacked projection and personality and very much gave up if he didn't hit those opening quads.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    No. But the huge majority of the criticism I saw last season about him was NOT about his edgework, his quality, his spins, or anything like that. It was about his artistry; it was people being critical because he wasn't Jeremy Abbott.

    Now he's worked hard on addressing that, and the focus has switched to his skating skills. Proving that he'll never make everybody happy.
    Not at all. Ziggy and I were all over his choppy edges and sloppiness last season.

    He doesn't have to make anyone happy but then he does need to improve on various aspects of his skating if he wants to have a shot at top 5 at the Sochi Olympics. The programs and expressions are better but the skating skills and execution could still be improved. He scored the lowest PCS out of all 3 men at Skate America.

  9. #29
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    Maybe but missing quads won't cut it if he ever makes it back to Worlds or the Olympics.
    I always thought the Quad Lutz was worth 12.7, But the woman on Eurosport said it's worth 15 points, Is that true ?

    Because if it is, Then yes, It could cut it for him, If he manages to rotate it, And fall, It would still be worth more than quad toe .

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    I disagree with this: I do.think that Mroz gave a shot to improving his presentation, and people lurve Bradley as a showman and entertainer.

    ITA. He isn't going to turn into Lambiel overnight, but he's giving a great shot at becoming a fine all-around skater and a good interpreter.
    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    No. But the huge majority of the criticism I saw last season about him was NOT about his edgework, his quality, his spins, or anything like that. It was about his artistry; it was people being critical because he wasn't Jeremy Abbott.

    Now he's worked hard on addressing that, and the focus has switched to his skating skills. Proving that he'll never make everybody happy.
    Max, keep up the good work, believe in yourself! Don't let the naysayers get you down!

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladola View Post
    I always thought the Quad Lutz was worth 12.7, But the woman on Eurosport said it's worth 15 points, Is that true ?
    As of ISU Communication 1790 (dated April 26, 2013), quad lutz is worth 13.6 base value and quad axel is worth 15.0.

    Take off 3 points for -3 GOE, plus fall deduction if applicable, and that's still a lot of points if the jump is rotated.

  12. #32
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    Didn't see any mention of Richard Dornbush among the US men with quads. Dornbush was very consistent until he started working on quads. He's hit and miss with the quad toe(mostly miss) and just started working on the quad sal. He could possibly have both consistent in a year or 2.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    No. But the huge majority of the criticism I saw last season about him was NOT about his edgework, his quality, his spins, or anything like that. It was about his artistry; it was people being critical because he wasn't Jeremy Abbott.

    Now he's worked hard on addressing that, and the focus has switched to his skating skills. Proving that he'll never make everybody happy.
    I honestly don't see a great deal of improvement from last year. Both of his programs this year are very one-note and he tends to let the music speak for him. He doesn't have that subtlety of movement or expression yet. This is particularly glaring in the Mambo program. Whenever I watch it I think "Daisuke Takahashi did this much, much better. Why is he forcing a negative comparison on himself?" I almost wish he had reused Tron, that felt more natural.

    And, frankly, people should criticize his skating skills/edging because they are very weak and he needs to improve.

  14. #34

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    For me the quad quandry is that the US doesnt have a guy that is BOTH great at quads and presentation.
    Aaron has the quads, I have no doubt he'll land many quads this season if he stays healthy. But as SA illustrated,the rest of his skating has a long way to go before he is at Rippon or Abbott's level.

    Rippon and Abbott present themselves very well, but seldomly get their quads done, or make too many other mistakes along the way. There's not anyone like a Hanyu, Fernandez or Chan that has both great presentation and quads.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by paskatefan View Post
    Max, keep up the good work, believe in yourself! Don't let the naysayers get you down!
    Not that I disagree the cheering for Max, but one can change the name to Patrick, Jason, Jeremy, Daisuke, ... whoever, and cheer the same way. Yet we rarely see the same commendations being sent to the more "artistic" (can't think of a better substitute for the word) skaters. They are usually urged to change, to stop bothering with the stuff they are really good at, and "land those damned quads!"

    When quads were worth less and a crashed quad were not worth a clean triple Lutz, people were complaining left and right figure skating is not a real sport. Now that quads are back in vogue and "athleticism" (for lack of a better word) is pushed front and center in who wins and who loses, and figure skating looks more like a "legitimate sport." What are you guys complaining about? [/sarcasm]

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jun Y View Post
    They are usually urged to change, to stop bothering with the stuff they are really good at, and "land those damned quads!"
    Patrick, I'll agree with you on. But the others- most of the time what I see is "I don't care what he lands, watching him skate is just magnificent" Or "wow, even without the big jumps, the artistry and skating skills were incredible, the system only cares about jumps" etc.

    It just depends if the person talking prefers jumps or artistry.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunnyBut View Post
    For me the quad quandry is that the US doesnt have a guy that is BOTH great at quads and presentation.
    Aaron has the quads, I have no doubt he'll land many quads this season if he stays healthy. But as SA illustrated,the rest of his skating has a long way to go before he is at Rippon or Abbott's level.

    Rippon and Abbott present themselves very well, but seldomly get their quads done, or make too many other mistakes along the way. There's not anyone like a Hanyu, Fernandez or Chan that has both great presentation and quads.
    But it took Javier FernŠndez a few years to improve his overall skills too. Even just two years ago he lagged behind the tops skaters in overall skating skills. Granted he could land quads at that time but i don't think anyone saw FernŠndez as a medal threat 2,3 years ago.

  18. #38
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    They didn't get the PCS (internationally) even when they land their jumps, and definitely not when they didn't. Very much like the French lady at Skate America. Bradley was wildly entertaining, but it didn't change the fact that his speed, basics and spins were way below par, no less for a US Champion. Mroz's effort showed, but overall he lacked projection and personality and very much gave up if he didn't hit those opening quads.
    Two of the examples here (Mae Berenice Meite, Ryan Bradley) prove that above all else, component scores across all the 5 categories are highly influenced by overall skating speed moreso than jump elements completed. Both Meite and Bradley are among the slower skaters in the field and also have a tendency to stalk their jump elements, which explains why they never get/got great component scores even with clean programs (speed and stalking also tends to influence the grades of execution as well, therefore it's a double whammy hit on both GOE and PCS).

    But it took Javier FernŠndez a few years to improve his overall skills too. Even just two years ago he lagged behind the tops skaters in overall skating skills. Granted he could land quads at that time but i don't think anyone saw FernŠndez as a medal threat 2,3 years ago
    I tend to be of the opinion that Fernandez's general consistency with quadruple jumps over the past 3 seasons has some contribution with his incremental components boost.

  19. #39

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    Hmmm, I seriously wonder if Brandon Mroz will ever try becoming the first man to land a quad-axel , as he seems to have given up becoming an all-around skater and the rewards received from such (aka podium at Nationals, Worlds, Olympics). Instead he seems to have turned his attention to making the history books. That's where he will make his mark imho, and has already done so with landing the quad-lutz.

    This brings to mind Javiar Fernandez (who has it all btw). Imho he's the most consistent on multiple quads, always seems to land three in his FS without fail. I'm wondering if he will go for and try to become the first man in history to land four quads in his FS? Tim Goebel already has the honor of landing three in his FS at the 2002 Olympics. Methinks Javiar will go for four...

  20. #40

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    I just remembered that Kevin Reynolds has tried the 4Lo a few times and I think was the first to attempt 3 DIFFERENT quads in his programs (has Mroz ever attempted that?).

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