Davis & White
Virtue & Moir
I do want to bring up something...some of you were not around on this board back in 2007 when D/W and V/M came on the senior circuit. D/W got a pretty fair amount of criticism back in the day from non-ubers on here, some of it justifiable, some of it just downright mean. Time went on and D/W really began to address their weaknesses and the gold medals started to come. V/M came on to the senior circuit very strong and I honestly remember them being so smooth and lovely skating Valse Triste. That same year D/W did Polevetsian Dances. The differences were obvious then...V/M had smooth edges, lovely flow and a beautiful connection. D/W were fast (though definitely not as fast as they became) and had an exciting power to their skating. It really was apples and oranges at that time. What impresses me about D/W is how they worked on every aspect of their skating through the years and it is obvious to me that they have improved tremendously from then until now. While there are still non-ubers who don't feel that they are the best in the world, the criticism faded quite a bit over the years and most of the time, D/W's skating and improvement is appreciated. If things had not changed, if V/M had continued to be placed above D/W every time they skated against one another (which is how it was in the beginning), obviously things would be different. The rivalry would not exist and I don't believe that would have been a good thing for either team. I have enjoyed the rivalry and yes, I quickly became an uber for D/W and have enjoyed seeing them on top of the podium. Both teams have fought hard to be on top and I feel that its been difficult for the judges through the years, they recognize both teams' strengths and the fact that they went Gold and Silver in their first Olympics was really phenomenal and a testament to their hard work and also the direction that ice dance seemed destined to take. It hasn't made everyone happy but I think it's been good for ice dance. As long as D/W and V/M continue to keep their skating strong, there will be the rivalry and someone's got to lose. And that means there will be unhappy ubers. But trying to convince others who don't think the sun rises and sets on your favorite team seems futile to me and no amount of discussion about the technical/artistic/whatever aspect of their skating will change minds. Guess it can make good discussion but when you are passionate about a team...well, that doesn't work too well, does it?
MERYL DAVIS AND CHARLIE WHITE - 2014 OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALISTS!
I am not trying to change anyone's mind as I am sure you aren't trying to change mine. We both agree that isn't happening. But we can both talk about the things we find problematic about the skating of opposing teams. In fact, these discussions should happen more. Often, everyone is in their own thread and we never get to talk. I think, for once, we are doing it, and frankly and without insult or snark (well, mostly). I think that's cool, after all we are all fans of the same sport. At the end of the day, as someone mentioned above, whatever happens, everyone will move on with their lives.
So then I want to ask you tapdancer, do you agree/disagree/no comment on various analysis here on why D/W shouldn't be getting the highest GOE and PCS.
Have some of these people seen Virtue Moir skate lately? They are clearly not the team they used to be in 2010. There is a lot amiss. It is getting quite easy to see their flaws as more time goes by. It was really conspicuous in the Carmen at World's. It started creeping in right after they came back from that break in 2011. Davis and White surpassed them in many aspects of skating. And then Shpilband left. Making twizzle errors, issues with step sequences, issues with lifts, spins. I've even seen some ubers say that the slow spins were choreographed by Virtue and Moir to demonstrate how tender he was being to her. If you don't want to see all this, go back and live in your happy world. In order to be ahead, you have to perform the entire program and just because one lift was great or if they got the twizzles right one time, it is not going to be enough to give them the lead. And yes, this is a sport, if it was art you would be watching exhibition programs all day where they can remove all the elements that give them trouble. At the end of the day, the uberness is getting in the way of acknowledging that Davis and White are a superior team.
Watching and comparing snippets of videos and screenshots all day do nothing to help any argument, where the credential-less people involved are extremely biased and blinded by their own self-certified greatness. Bullying everyone into getting the response you want is not going to change reality!
Last edited by dansk8ie; 11-08-2013 at 12:51 PM.
Couldn't have said it better myself, dansk8ie. That summed it up perfectly.
So we use those snippets of videos and screenshots to bring D/W's supposed superior ice dancing skills into discussion, and and instead of addressing those photographic evidences head on and tell us "no those are GREAT techniques because of X and Y", your rebuttle is V/M uber are blind, V/M makes mistakes on twizzles and slower spins than D/W. Nice deflection to avoid answering.
You, tapdancer or any D/W fans don't have to say you agree, but then I would like to know why because time and time again us V/M fan are the ones labeled crazy and blind.
In the end this is a really simple question for you to answer if it's as clear as day but still I see no one has tackle this question head on. Take V/M out of the equation then. In what way are those snippets of videos are screenshots showing good ice dancing skills from D/W to warrant +3 GOEs and high 9s and 10s in PCS? That's what we don't get and we must be crazy to not get it and because of that we want to discuss it with you who see D/W's being superior.
One who can't see the forest for the trees has typically become so focused on details that he or she begins to ignore the overall situation.
This is not correct on several points.There are teams who hold different positions during lifts, Davis and White do not. They hold just the one. Those other teams should, provided the execution is clean, get better GOE.
"Change of pose for lifted partner" is considered when assigning levels, not GOE, and there are different options for getting levels. A change of pose is a way of getting level 2 or 3 and pretty much necessary for Level 4. However, there is no reward for multiple position changes. The rules do not give more levels for more changes of pose after the first change. (ISU Communication 1677). Since Davis/White regularly get Level 4 on their lifts, I think they must be doing a change of pose.
The guidance on assigning GOE does not mention position changes at all, so you are wrong to think multiple position changes are needed for high GOE on lifts.
As for the bully comment above, dude. You say this is a sport, then people talk about specifics about the sport and you called them, what was it, "self-credentialed"? So only judges have the right to offer their take through the scoring? And no one has the right to ask questions about how the system works because if you do, you are... bullying? Alrighty then.
Last edited by Golightly; 11-08-2013 at 03:13 PM. Reason: ETA: My bad, you said "self-certified greatness".
If you look at GOE's marking guide, it doesn't say anything about whether the position is "pretty" or "balletic" or whatever you want the positions to be.
Here's what GOE rewards:
- entry/exit - it's not about whether it's pretty, but whether it's "controlled", "smooth" and "with ease"
- ascent/descent - effortless, floating
- change of pose - again, "effortless", "smooth", "flowing". Not "pretty" or "artistic"
- rotation technique - says it all
- change of curve
The last two are very technical and have nothing to do with the actual pose. Actually if you look at all of this, none of it has anything to do with the pose. GOE awards if the lift is effortless, smooth, if the rotation is flowing and fast, if the lift is solid and not shaky. Not if the poses are artistic.
Thus, none of your screenshots actually prove anything regarding Meryl and Charlie's lift GOE.
You can hate the system for it, but that's the way it is. I get the impression that many of you simply miss the oldschool ice dance and try to fit D/W into those standards, but that's not the way to go. Meryl and Charlie are CoP kids and you cannot blame them for making the most of it. i for one also miss the way ice dance used to be, but that era is over. You either deal with it and learn to enjoy ice dance as it is today, or you simply shouldn't bother at all, because all it's gonna do to you is cause your frustration.
Having said all of that I believe Meryl and Charlie's lifts this season are beautiful and even if ND lifts had their moments of awkwardness, it's definitely not the case this season.
The only lift I have a problem with is their upside down lift. I feel some things could be cleaned up if they're going to keep it, like perhaps a new exit. I don't really like how she's sort of on his backHaving said all of that I believe Meryl and Charlie's lifts this season are beautiful
I actually like the exit so it's a matter of taste. I am actually more of a fan of the second position of this lift (when he rotates and she's in the split position )
Is it bullying to say skater(s) don't have transitions, or cheats their jumps, lacks unison in sbs spins, flutzes, has windmill arms, etc? During the early days of CoP there were lots of civil conversations about technik and even politiks.... Denkova and Belbin had ugly positions, Navka was all posing with no steps, DelSchoes were underrated for their transitions and basics, GrushGons were called itchy and scratchy...
Another area where the sport is lazy or frightened is that VM are the ones who are raising the standard of ice dance by demonstrating what can be done with dance and skating. Playing with three different speeds on their twizzles, exiting a twizzle set with a sustained edge that they arrest in unison are just two examples. In the past, when a skater or skating team has raised the standard, the sport acknowledged this by redefining the highest level upwards. No longer does a triple toe loop merit the highest level in a jumping pass when a skater has demonstrated a triple triple is possible, or a triple lutz. The sport never said, very nice, but let's keep giving highest base value to that triple toe loop executed by itself.But dance has become, of late, a discipline where sloppiness gets a pass, where extension counts for nothing, where details in hand moments aren't rewarded, where speed control (pacing) is non-existence. How is it possible that a team who plays with three different speeds on their twizzles: entry, execution, and exit, gets lower GOE than a team who: a) doesn't change direction and b) uses the same speed all the time? See, these things bother me. But I don't call them a fix, I call them plain laziness. It's much easier to judge a one-dimensional team, who approaches the rink as a series of linear steps, A from B to C than another who does the opposite.
But that's what we have in ice dance. We have the equivalent of a clean triple toe loop getting valued as highly as a clean triple triple, with only the GOE setting one above the other. If the triple triple landing gets stuck on the back end, it gets a lesser score than the triple toe loop, even if, on top of this, the entrance to the 3/3 is more difficult than the entrance to the solo triple. And the fans of the skater who does the solo triple point and say the other skater is sloppy and the solo jumper is superior.
The scoring system allows for this in ice dance, and that's one of the issues with ice dance's legitimacy today. The other problem isn't embedded in the system, but how it's applied. If a team is sloppy in multiple aspects of their skating, but they choreograph to make it a feature instead of a bug, the sport goes along with it instead of holding the team to account in the scores.
Yes, and I believe this supports my analogy that in ice dance, unlike other figure skating divisions, elements that are manifestly less difficult are awarded the same base value as more advanced elements, and then it's just as if the person with a clean triple toe loop gets better GOE than a slightly wobbled, completed triple triple, thus getting higher scores, because the system rates both jumping passes the same.As for issues with their elements last season and this one thus far, I would say that is a reflection of the increased difficulty of their programs. They have choreography that takes them off their centre axis, that has them making quick and constant shifts of weight and changes of position. They also have little set-up to their elements (this was especially apparent in "Carmen"). These things impede a skater's ability to stay balanced over the blade to hit the exact edge needed to achieve a level in a step sequence, for instance. The overall amplitude of elements like their step sequences and compulsory patterns along with the rest of their skating appears greater than in past seasons. They made mistakes in their SD last year at Worlds but they still managed to achieve level 4s on their Yankee Polka sequences. Their step sequence at SC in the SD is the best I have ever seen from them--extremely clean turns with big, smooth entrance and exit curves. They had issues on the twizzles and one key point in the Finnstep pattern, but it is early in the season and they are still getting comfortable with their programs. There is a difference between mistakes and deficiencies in actual technique.
As to the poster to whom you've directed your remarks, you say bullying, and I'd add hit and run.
Last edited by Subway; 11-08-2013 at 05:15 PM. Reason: To reply to BourneandKratzfan