View Poll Results: If you were a bookie, who would you make favourite for the Ice Dance Olympic gold?

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  • Davis & White

    155 72.09%
  • Virtue & Moir

    58 26.98%
  • Other

    2 0.93%
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  1. #61
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    i love this. I think VM's funny face was better than DF, as brilliant at DF was. I wanted DF to win, really I did, but I have to say, as unpopular as it is, I thought FF was technically and artistically brilliant. Tessa, who I believe was the mastermind behind FF, is brilliant. I don't care for her partner very much - but I take the good with the bad. Carmen was OK but not as good as the dance put out by the Americans. I now compare Shez v Seasons and I have to say - Shez wins. Maybe come Sochi time I'll have a different opinion but DW, right now, seem really sharp to me - OGM worthy. I think PB have an OGM worth free dance, so do VM but DW have two dances that put them in first place . . . so far.

  2. #62
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    i love this. I think VM's funny face was better than DF, as brilliant at DF was. I wanted DF to win, really I did, but I have to say, as unpopular as it is, I thought FF was technically and artistically brilliant. Tessa, who I believe was the mastermind behind FF, is brilliant. I don't care for her partner very much - but I take the good with the bad. Carmen was OK but not as good as the dance put out by the Americans. I now compare Shez v Seasons and I have to say - Shez wins. Maybe come Sochi time I'll have a different opinion but DW, right now, seem really sharp to me - OGM worthy. I think PB have an OGM worth free dance, so do VM but DW have two dances that put them in first place . . . so far.

  3. #63
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    "Using V/M Über-Idiots as Clay Pigeons...."
    Girl, you've got more issues than Vogue
    Last edited by parapluies; 11-04-2013 at 03:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rustyskater View Post
    My money's on DW because it's crystal clear they are the better ice dancers over the Canadians. More power, cleaner edges and stronger body lines and extensions.
    I would use these same reasons to explain V&M's superiority over the field, though I would also add stronger elements, greater complexity, greater amplitude in both their movements and their overall pattern, better sense of rhythm, etc..

    But the results don't always reflect what happened on the ice.
    Wishing all the teams the best!

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    From watching the competitions without being biased one way or another.
    Oh come on, just because you don't spend all your time in the D/W thread, doesn't mean you aren't biased. Anyone who agrees that it's crystal clear that D/W are the better skaters has a bias somewhere. Are D/W's programs more ready right now? Yes, but V/M programs are more complex and always take more time to grow (not that D/W's programs are super simple in general but their complexity isn't rooted in skating, for example their FD has a lot of detailed posing but it's still posing).

    I'm not going to argue that there are lots of silly things said by V/M fans here, there are. But some of the stuff that's said is dismissed right away because it doesn't follow the established narrative. For example, since when are D/W more powerful skaters than V/M? They might have more powerful upper body movements but if you actually look at the skating, there's no way to support that statement. Mute the sound and watch both teams back to back, it's obvious. D/W do some things better than V/M but powerful stroking isn't one of them, and yet you hear it all the time.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by walei View Post
    Excuse me Cyn I don't read Golden Skate. My post was a response to one of the post in THIS thread of that diatribe insulting V/M and claims that they only won in Nice solely because of Scott's whining and bitching.
    I know, and FTR, I may think that Scott behaves like an ass sometimes, but I disagree with Fenway and whoever else it was upthread who made those statements.

    Quote Originally Posted by walei View Post
    But thank you for being one of the few D/W ubers that recognizes D/W shouldn't have won in Nice. Maybe you can go to the D/W thread and elsewhere and tell your fellow ubers that the next time THEY play the oppression of mighty Skate Canada and the victimization of D/W card.
    Correction there -- I may be a fan of theirs, but I don't über them, nor do I über any other skater or team. I also don't hate or even dislike Tessa and Scott. I think they're enormously talented, and the rivalry with Meryl and Charlie has been fantastic -- I'm a fan of figure skating, and it's done wonders for Ice Dance in North America.

    Quote Originally Posted by walei View Post
    On topic, before Skate Canada I would put my money on D/W but odds may not be so heavily in their favor after what I've seen from Skate Canada. The next two weeks may change my mind again... but I would still put my money on D/W.
    Right now I think Meryl and Charlie have momentum, but it would be foolish for anyone to put all their eggs in one basket at this point of the season -- way too much can happen between now and Sochi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zazy View Post
    Oh come on, just because you don't spend all your time in the D/W thread, doesn't mean you aren't biased. Anyone who agrees that it's crystal clear that D/W are the better skaters has a bias somewhere.
    Sweetie, there's a huge difference between preferring one team to another and having a bias. I fall into the former category. You obviously don't read any of my posts -- I've never, ever said that Davis/White are "clearly" the better skaters because I've felt that for the past five years that either team can win when they're competing against each other, but bless your little heart for deluding yourself into thinking that.

    Quote Originally Posted by walei View Post
    Maybe you can turn your attention to that instead of jokingly thinking you want to shoot V/M fans who disagree with your opinions all the time.
    There's that persecutory complex in high gear again. If you think I want to "shoot" your übers because they "disagree with my opinions all the time," you're way, way off base. I don't expect you to agree with me -- hence the term "über." To understand why that Location is there, please see my response to parapluies.

    Quote Originally Posted by parapluies View Post
    Girl, you've got more issues than Vogue
    No, honey, *that* is what you call satire. If you'd been around this forum for more than 11 months or bothered to venture out of your V/M bubble, you would know that there's been a long-running, friendly joke here on FSU because I own a Glock. Back when I was an Admin, my User Title was "The Admin With A Glock." Over the years, other members here have teasingly asked to "borrow" it in the virtual sense to "shoot" various trolls on the board, various pains in the ass both IRL and on FSU, and IIRC, a couple of inanimate objects giving someone fits. Just because my Location snarks on V/M übers, doesn't mean I have issues, nor does it mean that I have it in for y'all -- in the past I've "targeted" the YuNa Bombers, the WeirDos, and back in the day, the OTT Kwaniacs. It's my little way of expressing that I think some of y'all behave like a bunch of annoying, hypersensitive, paranoid idiots with a major persecutory complex when it comes to Tessa and Scott.

    I also find it highly that so many of y'all scream about the alleged double-standard y'all claim exists WRT the judges' marks for Meryl and Charlie, yet you expect a double-standard WRT when Tessa and Scott make obvious mistakes -- case in point, the aforementioned botched twizzles made by Tessa and the misstep by Scott in the SD at last year's Worlds. There was violent gnashing of teeth in your thread that they were, IYO, heavily penalized for those mistakes (in that thread those mistakes were referred to as a "small," "minor," and "tiny"), yet if Meryl and Charlie had made those same exact mistakes, those mistakes would have been considered huge, glaring, egregious, etc., and I have a fat honking suspicion that the same loss of points Tessa and Scott received wouldn't have been sufficient enough of a penalty.

    Also, just to be clear, I'm snarky about a lot of skaters. Snark is a lot of what FSU is about. I may be disappointed if Meryl and Charlie don't win, but I don't rail and bitch about V/M when that happens. Being frank, the one team I *do* tend to bitch about is Chock/Bates, primarily because of Madison. I didn't like her when she skated with Greg Zuerlein, and when Evan and Emily split so that he could skate with her, that fueled the dislike to a red-hot level, and I think Evan was a grade-A tool for ditching a vastly superior partner to skate with one who is grossly inferior.

    Lastly, I also cheer for a lot of skaters and teams, both from US as well as a bunch of other countries. I'm thrilled when a skater or team that's not highly ranked delivers a kickass program or skates well in a competition (case in point, Kaetlyn Osmond's short program at Worlds last year).

    Quote Originally Posted by Zazy View Post
    Are D/W's programs more ready right now? Yes, but V/M programs are more complex and always take more time to grow (not that D/W's programs are super simple in general but their complexity isn't rooted in skating, for example their FD has a lot of detailed posing but it's still posing).
    Posing is what Viktor Petrenko did in his programs -- standing in place without any foot movement and doing hand-ography in place for 10 or more seconds. Stopping for a momentary pause to transition to a different cut of music with a change in tempo is not posing. But again, bless your little heart for deluding yourself into thinking that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zazy View Post
    I'm not going to argue that there are lots of silly things said by V/M fans here, there are. But some of the stuff that's said is dismissed right away because it doesn't follow the established narrative. For example, since when are D/W more powerful skaters than V/M? They might have more powerful upper body movements but if you actually look at the skating, there's no way to support that statement. Mute the sound and watch both teams back to back, it's obvious. D/W do some things better than V/M but powerful stroking isn't one of them, and yet you hear it all the time.
    They must have crap stroking because they just crawl across the ice . You cannot generate that kind of speed and flow without good stroking or good edges. Of course, I don't expect y'all to give them credit for things you refuse to see or acknowledge, because that doesn't fit *your* narrative, but bless your little heart for deluding yourself into thinking that. The quote "There's none so blind as those who will not see" applies here WRT y'all's perception of D/W's skating.
    Last edited by Cyn; 11-04-2013 at 10:40 AM. Reason: To insert a paragraph

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    Sweetie, there's a huge difference between preferring one team to another and having a bias. I fall into the former category. You obviously don't read any of my posts -- I've never, ever said that Davis/White are "clearly" the better skaters because I've felt that for the past five years that either team can win when they're competing against each other, but bless your little heart for deluding yourself into thinking that.
    How can you be so sure you have no bias? Just because you think both teams are talented doesn't mean you're perfectly objective, noone is. If you prefer one team over another you are biased. Period. You can try to be fair but it's impossible not to have your preferences get in the way. It doesn't mean we can't have discussions over the relative merits of both teams but the bias will always be there and I think it's a good idea to remember that.

    You might not have outright said that D/W are clearly the better ice dancers, but you clearly implied as much:

    Quote Originally Posted by rustyskater
    My money's on DW because it's crystal clear they are the better ice dancers over the Canadians. More power, cleaner edges and stronger body lines and extensions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721
    Are you getting that from watching the skating or reading the protocols?
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn
    From watching the competitions without being biased one way or another.
    I mean, what else are we supposed to get from that? If that isn't what you meant then that's an error on your part, not mine. The insults and condescending tone are not needed and say more about you than anything else.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn
    Posing is what Viktor Petrenko did in his programs -- standing in place without any foot movement and doing hand-ography in place for 10 or more seconds. Stopping for a momentary pause to transition to a different cut of music with a change in tempo is not posing. But again, bless your little heart for deluding yourself into thinking that.
    I guess we have a different idea of posing then. To me, a lot of segments in D/W's program are not at a complete standstill but have very little ice coverage and don't use their edges in more than a perfunctory manner, for example the section where Charlie does a bunch of lunges in a row around Meryl. They're technically moving so I can see why you wouldn't consider it posing but I disagree. Again, no need for insults.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn
    They must have crap stroking because they just crawl across the ice . You cannot generate that kind of speed and flow without good stroking or good edges. Of course, I don't expect y'all to give them credit for things you refuse to see or acknowledge, because that doesn't fit *your* narrative, but bless your little heart for deluding yourself into thinking that. The quote "There's none so blind as those who will not see" applies here WRT y'all's perception of D/W's skating.
    When did I say they had crap stroking? I said it wasn't as good as V/M, there's a difference. There are people on here who aren't V/M ubers and actually know a lot about ice dance who agree with me. So it isn't just some crazy uber saying this. You've clearly decided that anything a V/M fan says is crazy, but what about them? I know Silver has mentioned several times that V/M have the best skating skills. Is that crazy as well? And if so why?

    Just because the criticism of D/W's skating by some fans is rather extreme, doesn't mean there isn't some truth to it. D/W have improved but they still have a number of weaknesses. I don't think it's a crime to point it out.

  8. #68

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    Wow. Ok to summarize: D&W are better, V&M aren't. OR V&M are better, D&W aren't.

    SC is an evil organization that influences results. OR they aren't any worse than any other skating fed.

    Hmm......
    Gone crazy. Be back soon.

  9. #69
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    I agree. In 2002, Anissina and Peizerat had lost their world title the year before and lost the grand prix title to Bourze and Kraatz. It's the Olympics and D/W have the momentum at this point, but nothing is guaranteed.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    I know, and FTR, I may think that Scott behaves like an ass sometimes, but I disagree with Fenway and whoever else it was upthread who made those statements.



    Correction there -- I may be a fan of theirs, but I don't über them, nor do I über any other skater or team. I also don't hate or even dislike Tessa and Scott. I think they're enormously talented, and the rivalry with Meryl and Charlie has been fantastic -- I'm a fan of figure skating, and it's done wonders for Ice Dance in North America.



    Right now I think Meryl and Charlie have momentum, but it would be foolish for anyone to put all their eggs in one basket at this point of the season -- way too much can happen between now and Sochi.



    Sweetie, there's a huge difference between preferring one team to another and having a bias. I fall into the former category. You obviously don't read any of my posts -- I've never, ever said that Davis/White are "clearly" the better skaters because I've felt that for the past five years that either team can win when they're competing against each other, but bless your little heart for deluding yourself into thinking that.



    There's that persecutory complex in high gear again. If you think I want to "shoot" your übers because they "disagree with my opinions all the time," you're way, way off base. I don't expect you to agree with me -- hence the term "über." To understand why that Location is there, please see my response to parapluies.



    No, honey, *that* is what you call satire. If you'd been around this forum for more than 11 months or bothered to venture out of your V/M bubble, you would know that there's been a long-running, friendly joke here on FSU because I own a Glock. Back when I was an Admin, my User Title was "The Admin With A Glock." Over the years, other members here have teasingly asked to "borrow" it in the virtual sense to "shoot" various trolls on the board, various pains in the ass both IRL and on FSU, and IIRC, a couple of inanimate objects giving someone fits. Just because my Location snarks on V/M übers, doesn't mean I have issues, nor does it mean that I have it in for y'all -- in the past I've "targeted" the YuNa Bombers, the WeirDos, and back in the day, the OTT Kwaniacs. It's my little way of expressing that I think some of y'all behave like a bunch of annoying, hypersensitive, paranoid idiots with a major persecutory complex when it comes to Tessa and Scott.

    I also find it highly that so many of y'all scream about the alleged double-standard y'all claim exists WRT the judges' marks for Meryl and Charlie, yet you expect a double-standard WRT when Tessa and Scott make obvious mistakes -- case in point, the aforementioned botched twizzles made by Tessa and the misstep by Scott in the SD at last year's Worlds. There was violent gnashing of teeth in your thread that they were, IYO, heavily penalized for those mistakes (in that thread those mistakes were referred to as a "small," "minor," and "tiny"), yet if Meryl and Charlie had made those same exact mistakes, those mistakes would have been considered huge, glaring, egregious, etc., and I have a fat honking suspicion that the same loss of points Tessa and Scott received wouldn't have been sufficient enough of a penalty.

    Also, just to be clear, I'm snarky about a lot of skaters. Snark is a lot of what FSU is about. I may be disappointed if Meryl and Charlie don't win, but I don't rail and bitch about V/M when that happens. Being frank, the one team I *do* tend to bitch about is Chock/Bates, primarily because of Madison. I didn't like her when she skated with Greg Zuerlein, and when Evan and Emily split so that he could skate with her, that fueled the dislike to a red-hot level, and I think Evan was a grade-A tool for ditching a vastly superior partner to skate with one who is grossly inferior.

    Lastly, I also cheer for a lot of skaters and teams, both from US as well as a bunch of other countries. I'm thrilled when a skater or team that's not highly ranked delivers a kickass program or skates well in a competition (case in point, Kaetlyn Osmond's short program at Worlds last year).



    Posing is what Viktor Petrenko did in his programs -- standing in place without any foot movement and doing hand-ography in place for 10 or more seconds. Stopping for a momentary pause to transition to a different cut of music with a change in tempo is not posing. But again, bless your little heart for deluding yourself into thinking that.



    They must have crap stroking because they just crawl across the ice . You cannot generate that kind of speed and flow without good stroking or good edges. Of course, I don't expect y'all to give them credit for things you refuse to see or acknowledge, because that doesn't fit *your* narrative, but bless your little heart for deluding yourself into thinking that. The quote "There's none so blind as those who will not see" applies here WRT y'all's perception of D/W's skating.
    This. Entire. Post.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zazy View Post
    Just because the criticism of D/W's skating by some fans is rather extreme, doesn't mean there isn't some truth to it. D/W have improved but they still have a number of weaknesses. I don't think it's a crime to point it out.
    No, it's not a crime to point out things that D/W need to work on, but as I bolded in your statement, even you see that some take it too far. At that point it isn't constructive criticism, it's just insulting for the joy of being mean. Both sides are guilty of it, but it really seems like some (NOT ALL) V/M fans are going after D/W with a vigor that's kind of disturbing. I understand being fiercely loyal to a skater/skaters (I'm an admitted Kwan fan), but at some point when you are unable to see ANY good in the other team and can only see their flaws and then exaggerate those flaws to the point of near hysteria, it's time to take a few hundred steps back.

    I'd love to see D/W win in Sochi, but if they get outskated, they get outskated. I'll be sad for them, but there's no shame in going out there and giving it 100% and if they come up short, the sun will still come up tomorrow. I really like V/M but I'll admit some fans are really tainting them for me. I was so happy for them in Vancouver because they earned that gold medal, but I can't say I'm cheering for them as hard this year simply because I think Meryl and Charlie have a legitimate shot at the gold, too. Plus, I have to cheer for the home team.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    Also, just to be clear, I'm snarky about a lot of skaters. Snark is a lot of what FSU is about. I may be disappointed if Meryl and Charlie don't win, but I don't rail and bitch about V/M when that happens. Being frank, the one team I *do* tend to bitch about is Chock/Bates, primarily because of Madison. I didn't like her when she skated with Greg Zuerlein, and when Evan and Emily split so that he could skate with her, that fueled the dislike to a red-hot level, and I think Evan was a grade-A tool for ditching a vastly superior partner to skate with one who is grossly inferior.
    In this entire D/W vs V/M debate finally someone said something about C/B that I wholeheartedly agree on! I never got over the nasty way Emily was treated in this situation. I thought she was an amazing ice dancer with lots of potential and she was actually the one that made S/B shine. Evan was just a nice background. And she was so genuinely likeable, unlike Madison.

    Just look at this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwzjL2VqCN0

    versus this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu9Ya_AJlow



    ETA: And Madison totally reminds me of Scott. Very full of herself, very much in love with her own talent.
    Last edited by mia joy; 11-04-2013 at 11:54 PM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by mia joy View Post
    ETA: And Madison totally reminds me of Scott. Very full of herself, very much in love with her own talent.
    Scott is definitely not full of himself. He does wear his heart (and mind) on his sleeve, which makes his interviews rather interesting sometimes. It also makes him more relatable to a broader section of the population outside of the gentrified and politically correct world of skating. Since he was a child, he's been an extroverted, funny, high energy, competitive person who always gives 110%. And he's a good leader. He and Tessa have run some excellent inspirational training days with young skaters on and off ice. He's also been the athlete rep/mentor for Western Ontario Section for more than a couple of years. He has a very clear vision of what ice dance should be, and I expect he will be involved at a number of different levels in the sport to continue to influence the direction of the sport in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rustyskater View Post
    I thought FF was technically and artistically brilliant. Tessa, who I believe was the mastermind behind FF, is brilliant. I don't care for her partner very much - but I take the good with the bad.
    Fair enough. It's actually cool to see someone recognize Tessa's involvement with the Funny Face choreography. I feel that's often taken for granted. A lot of the steps and transitions in Funny Face were all her.

    As for putting my money on someone to win. I think I will wait. I'd love to see VM win, they're my team, but the heart has nothing to do with the money So I will wait. I'll get back to you in a couple of months.

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    Quote Originally Posted by centerstage01 View Post
    No, it's not a crime to point out things that D/W need to work on, but as I bolded in your statement, even you see that some take it too far. At that point it isn't constructive criticism, it's just insulting for the joy of being mean. Both sides are guilty of it, but it really seems like some (NOT ALL) V/M fans are going after D/W with a vigor that's kind of disturbing. I understand being fiercely loyal to a skater/skaters (I'm an admitted Kwan fan), but at some point when you are unable to see ANY good in the other team and can only see their flaws and then exaggerate those flaws to the point of near hysteria, it's time to take a few hundred steps back.

    I'd love to see D/W win in Sochi, but if they get outskated, they get outskated. I'll be sad for them, but there's no shame in going out there and giving it 100% and if they come up short, the sun will still come up tomorrow. I really like V/M but I'll admit some fans are really tainting them for me. I was so happy for them in Vancouver because they earned that gold medal, but I can't say I'm cheering for them as hard this year simply because I think Meryl and Charlie have a legitimate shot at the gold, too. Plus, I have to cheer for the home team.
    Well, I think the problem is ignorance of the sport even by people who follow it closely. A lot of people never bother to understand how the scoring works and then cry foul if they don't like the result, but without being able to explain why their team should have won. You say V/M earned their victory in Vancouver but would you be able to explain why, using objective scoring criteria? How many people have actually read the ISU documents that describe how to score PCS and GOE? How many people have a real understanding of which lifts or moves are more difficult, what's involved in great skating skills, what good posture and line looks like? I'm guessing 99% of us don't really know what we're talking about much of the time. (And I include myself in this: I've watched ice dance for many years, I've tried to educate myself as much as possible but I'm not an expert). So people will latch on to whatever argument supports their favourite skater but since they don't know what they're talking about, they'll sometimes push it to an extreme. That's fan wars in a nutshell.

    I do feel that the current judging climate and the COP system in general favours D/W. And the elimination of compulsories, the choice of the last two SD patterns, the changes in level scoring for step sequences and twizzles, all have benefited them (Can you imagine the outcry from some quarters if blues and tango had been chosen?) I think 20 years ago V/M would have been widely considered as the superior skaters but standards change and they're skating in the wrong era for their particular strengths, and the opposite is true for D/W. It's frustrating and confusing to me and other V/M fans because what's valued in ice dance has changed very quickly. But D/W are very talented at what they do, even if it isn't what I personally would like ice dance to look like (dancing using your edges, interdependent movement, etc.) Odds are very good that they'll win and so be it. I hope judging standards will change down the road though or I'll end up losing interest in ice dance.

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    One thing that bothers me, for instance, is the constant toe picking between elements and outside of the step sequences. Not just Davis and White do this, of course, this is not just a criticism to them. A few years ago, these things were punished by the judges. The core of ice dance is your edgework and sadly, I don't think that the judges are stressing that enough. Then you have V-M, not a perfect team, mind you, they do have their weaknesses, but one thing they have (and come on, let's be fair and not deny this) is superior edgework. But, you know what? This doesn't matter these days! Judges aren't rewarding anyone for their edgework? No one cares if your edges are better? That's not what's being marked. What's being marked is adequacy. If you do enough, say, do a little mohawk here, a little choctaw there, hold an edge a little during your step sequence, there's your level 4. That's what I don't like, that, to me, is not edgework. I love dance dearly, but I don't like the state of the sport right now. That's me, others can (and will) disagree, of course. Tomatoes, tomatos, I guess.

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    Heart says V/M, brain says D/W… In this case i want to follow my heart.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zazy View Post
    Well, I think the problem is ignorance of the sport even by people who follow it closely. A lot of people never bother to understand how the scoring works and then cry foul if they don't like the result, but without being able to explain why their team should have won. You say V/M earned their victory in Vancouver but would you be able to explain why, using objective scoring criteria? How many people have actually read the ISU documents that describe how to score PCS and GOE? How many people have a real understanding of which lifts or moves are more difficult, what's involved in great skating skills, what good posture and line looks like? I'm guessing 99% of us don't really know what we're talking about much of the time. (And I include myself in this: I've watched ice dance for many years, I've tried to educate myself as much as possible but I'm not an expert). So people will latch on to whatever argument supports their favourite skater but since they don't know what they're talking about, they'll sometimes push it to an extreme. That's fan wars in a nutshell.

    I do feel that the current judging climate and the COP system in general favours D/W. And the elimination of compulsories, the choice of the last two SD patterns, the changes in level scoring for step sequences and twizzles, all have benefited them (Can you imagine the outcry from some quarters if blues and tango had been chosen?) I think 20 years ago V/M would have been widely considered as the superior skaters but standards change and they're skating in the wrong era for their particular strengths, and the opposite is true for D/W. It's frustrating and confusing to me and other V/M fans because what's valued in ice dance has changed very quickly. But D/W are very talented at what they do, even if it isn't what I personally would like ice dance to look like (dancing using your edges, interdependent movement, etc.) Odds are very good that they'll win and so be it. I hope judging standards will change down the road though or I'll end up losing interest in ice dance.
    This is an excellent analysis. And I think maybe some of Scott's comments from time to time (which some give him a hard time about) may come out of a sense of frustration over the direction of judging in ice dance. I'm not sure we can blame COP for this entirely, though. Yes, there is a more athletic focus on skating and ice dance since the introduction of COP. It was needed and long overdue, I think. But I think the tools exist, especially within PCS but also within GOE, to still reward all those wonderful things that make ice dance well, ice dance. I recommend a good read of the following document from the ISU website. It's the handbook for referees and judges for ice dance:

    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf

    There are lots of opportunities to reward the ice dance in ice dance. But I think it requires a deep understanding on the part of the judges, and a real adherence to these rules. I think too many are still using PCS as a ranking tool like 6.0. There is a ton of detail, and I think there needs to be some more discussions and training sessions on the application of GOE and PCS. And they might need to keep some of these pages as handy reference sheets while they judge. But I think it's worth the effort, and will help bring some credibility back to ice dance results, at least for those of us who are not extreme ubers at all costs. I have my favourites, but it isn't blind favouritism. I can accept when they are knocked in points from time to time for less than perfect elements. But I am frustrated at the lack of discipline often in awarding PCS and GOE. The criteria is there for them. The judges just need to use it. And I think some public education on how PCS and GOE should be determined would maybe help tone down some of the crazy fan wars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by centerstage01 View Post
    No, it's not a crime to point out things that D/W need to work on, but as I bolded in your statement, even you see that some take it too far. At that point it isn't constructive criticism, it's just insulting for the joy of being mean. Both sides are guilty of it, but it really seems like some (NOT ALL) V/M fans are going after D/W with a vigor that's kind of disturbing. I understand being fiercely loyal to a skater/skaters (I'm an admitted Kwan fan), but at some point when you are unable to see ANY good in the other team and can only see their flaws and then exaggerate those flaws to the point of near hysteria, it's time to take a few hundred steps back.

    I'd love to see D/W win in Sochi, but if they get outskated, they get outskated. I'll be sad for them, but there's no shame in going out there and giving it 100% and if they come up short, the sun will still come up tomorrow. I really like V/M but I'll admit some fans are really tainting them for me. I was so happy for them in Vancouver because they earned that gold medal, but I can't say I'm cheering for them as hard this year simply because I think Meryl and Charlie have a legitimate shot at the gold, too. Plus, I have to cheer for the home team.
    But Zazy was talking about there being some truth to the criticism of DW's skating, extreme fandom or otherwise.

    Whenever I read the VM thread and the posters are talking (very animatedly and passionately, vigorously, whatever adjective one would use) about flaws in their rivals, there are some very valid points and arguments to support why they think their rivals should not be getting x amount of points or why they are weaker in one department than another...these discussions can go on for pages and pages and pages, which (to me anyways) is always interesting and very informative. There are detailed comparisons of both teams and I enjoy reading the posters stance on why A is better than B (with thorough explanations and references to ISU handbook, videos, of course). Maybe certain fans or ubers can't take criticism of their favorites so they see these posts as attacking and hostile. In the SC FD thread, I merely pointed out that VM were better than DW in several skills of ice dancing, to which I was baselessly called biased and a D/W hater, no less

    IMO, educational discussions/informative disucssions about why people view A better than B (with detailed explanations) is not attacking. Those fans who can't speak up for their own favorites end up calling their rivals douchebags, unsportmanlike whiney sore losers, (or the idiot who called them a tampon and the bag that came in it with some lame Big Bang Theory interpretation/monologue/soliloquy, etc.... ) That is taking the low road and most definitely not constructive criticism. I don't see this in the VM thread, just in the other thread...

    So I get skeptical about those who whine about the V/M fandom attacking D/W vigorously on FSU especially considering the source.

    ETA: On a side note, I find it hilarious that some claim they are not ubers, but fans of all skaters. It's pretty clear that once you take offense at the criticism of a certain team in their rival's thread, to the extent that you frantically start PM-ing those people to stop it immediately or will report to admins, you have most definitely reached uberdom. Maybe just don't read that certain thread if your tolerance level to criticism is very low.
    Last edited by Tweak; 11-06-2013 at 05:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    And I think maybe some of Scott's comments from time to time (which some give him a hard time about) may come out of a sense of frustration over the direction of judging in ice dance.
    Most of the time they come out of a sense of frustration over not winning, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tweak View Post
    IMO, educational discussions/informative disucssions about why people view A better than B (with detailed explanations) is not attacking. Those fans who can't speak up for their own favorites end up calling their rivals douchebags, unsportmanlike whiney sore losers, (or the idiot who called them a tampon and the bag that came in it with some lame Big Bang Theory interpretation/monologue/soliloquy, etc.... ) That is taking the low road and most definitely not constructive criticism. I don't see this in the VM thread, just in the other thread...
    Please. There are no constructive discussions in that thread. I haven't ever seen one person in there who would say Meryl and Charlie were good at something. In their world, everything D/W do is crappy and overscored (God only knows how many times that word has been used there regarding D/W). And most of the time when V/M lose, it's not because they had a bad performance, it's because the whole world is politicking against them

    I might be a passionate D/W fan and I do think Scott comes off terribly arrogant sometimes and I generally do not dig their style or programs, but I can still see their talent and quality of their skating. It wasn't too hard for me to say Carmen was a great dance or (not long ago) that I loved V/M's midline step sequence. You never see this kind of opinions about D/W in the other thread.

    Have you ever even bothered to read the D/W thread? We barely speak about V/M there, we concentrate on Meryl and Charlie, whereas in the other thread they talk Meryl and Charlie more often than they breathe

    For some V/M ubers the only way to go is attack. It seems they can only appreciate their team when they bash the other. Sorry, but it's true. Not all of them, but MANY of them. And I do realize sometimes D/W fans act the same way, but I would say there are much less crazy DW ubers than crazy VM ubers. Or maybe they're just not as loud.

    I think the reason is that most D/W fans actually agree V/M and D/W are both great teams, but their personal preference lies with D/W who, at the moment, seem to be on top of their game. V/M fans, on the other hand, got used to the thought V/M are the better team (because they were until D/W caught up) and it's so friggin hard for them to accept it is not necessarily the case anymore.

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