View Poll Results: If you were a bookie, who would you make favourite for the Ice Dance Olympic gold?

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  • Davis & White

    155 72.09%
  • Virtue & Moir

    58 26.98%
  • Other

    2 0.93%
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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by dansk8ie View Post
    First and last post!
    Have some of these people seen Virtue Moir skate lately? They are clearly not the team they used to be in 2010. There is a lot amiss. It is getting quite easy to see their flaws as more time goes by. It was really conspicuous in the Carmen at World's. It started creeping in right after they came back from that break in 2011. Davis and White surpassed them in many aspects of skating. And then Shpilband left. Making twizzle errors, issues with step sequences, issues with lifts, spins. [...] If you don't want to see all this, go back and live in your happy world.
    No, they are much better. They have better stroking efficiency, that is, more power per stroke than they did back then. They also have a greater vocabulary of movement which is exhibited in the increased difficulty in their choreography and greater freedom of movement in elements like their step sequences (which is also tied to improvements in their basic blade technique). They have also developed even greater stability in their lifting positions. These are but a few of the improvements they have made.

    They missed most of the 2011 season, so I don't know that you can take mistakes made in that truncated season as evidence of their overall regression. As for issues with their elements last season and this one thus far, I would say that is a reflection of the increased difficulty of their programs. They have choreography that takes them off their centre axis, that has them making quick and constant shifts of weight and changes of position. They also have little set-up to their elements (this was especially apparent in "Carmen"). These things impede a skater's ability to stay balanced over the blade to hit the exact edge needed to achieve a level in a step sequence, for instance. The overall amplitude of elements like their step sequences and compulsory patterns along with the rest of their skating appears greater than in past seasons. They made mistakes in their SD last year at Worlds but they still managed to achieve level 4s on their Yankee Polka sequences. Their step sequence at SC in the SD is the best I have ever seen from them--extremely clean turns with big, smooth entrance and exit curves. They had issues on the twizzles and one key point in the Finnstep pattern, but it is early in the season and they are still getting comfortable with their programs. There is a difference between mistakes and deficiencies in actual technique.

    Quote Originally Posted by ;
    Watching and comparing snippets of videos and screenshots all day do nothing to help any argument, where the credential-less people involved are extremely biased and blinded by their own self-certified greatness. Bullying everyone into getting the response you want is not going to change reality!
    So now educating yourself on technique and the judging system governing the sport and using this information as the basis for analysis of the skating and scoring qualifies as "self-certified greatness"? Framing the discussion in the manner in which you have, one that is intended to suppress discussion, is what I would call bullying.

  2. #182
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    Watching and comparing snippets of videos and screenshots all day do nothing to help any argument, where the credential-less people involved are extremely biased and blinded by their own self-certified greatness. Bullying everyone into getting the response you want is not going to change reality!
    Please point out where in this analysis the credential-less people are blinded. Point out where they're mischaracterizing what's happening on the ice. You can't claim people are blinded without clear vision yourself. Otherwise how would you know?

    And cue a jump to the other side of the discussion and analysis is treated synonymously with "obsession". Analysis is what CoP is supposed to do. It's part of any judged sport, which is what ice dance pretends to be - a sport. Davis White and Virtue Moir aren't competing for an Academy Award.

    "Reality" is exactly what the quoted comments appear bent on avoiding.
    Last edited by Subway; 11-08-2013 at 04:33 PM.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by dansk8ie View Post
    First and last post!
    Have some of these people seen Virtue Moir skate lately? They are clearly not the team they used to be in 2010. There is a lot amiss. It is getting quite easy to see their flaws as more time goes by. It was really conspicuous in the Carmen at World's. It started creeping in right after they came back from that break in 2011. Davis and White surpassed them in many aspects of skating. And then Shpilband left. Making twizzle errors, issues with step sequences, issues with lifts, spins. I've even seen some ubers say that the slow spins were choreographed by Virtue and Moir to demonstrate how tender he was being to her. If you don't want to see all this, go back and live in your happy world. In order to be ahead, you have to perform the entire program and just because one lift was great or if they got the twizzles right one time, it is not going to be enough to give them the lead. And yes, this is a sport, if it was art you would be watching exhibition programs all day where they can remove all the elements that give them trouble. At the end of the day, the uberness is getting in the way of acknowledging that Davis and White are a superior team.
    Watching and comparing snippets of videos and screenshots all day do nothing to help any argument, where the credential-less people involved are extremely biased and blinded by their own self-certified greatness. Bullying everyone into getting the response you want is not going to change reality!
    You clearly haven't been watchingg V/M at all the past quad. V/M always start the GP weak come off strong. Between Finlandia and SC V/M have improved aLOT. They cleaned up alot of their skating meanwhile D/W improved very little - Charlie is still shaky on lifts, they skate far apart during holds, and one thing I've noticed they are so much slower than they were with ND. Criticizing someone's skating is not bullying.

  4. #184

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    I don't believe the bullying comment was about being critical about a team's skating. Its about insisting that others agree with your assessment because you throw out a steady stream of videos, pics, and your own opinions about what the judges are looking for.

  5. #185
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    Someone upthread asked when D/W received levels or +GOE when they didn't deserve it. I wanted to bring up just one example from this season thus far.

    D/W received a level 4 for their first Finnstep pattern in the SD at Skate America when it should have been called level 3 due to Meryl missing the second key point. (Tessa also missed this point at SC and V/M were properly dinged for it.) The second keypoint of the first sequence is done by the lady only. It consists of steps 20 and 21. Step 20 is a left backward outside cross behind and a right backward cross forward. Step 21 is a 1 1/2 twizzle that MUST end with a clear right forward outside edge. The keypoint features in ISU communication 1782 are as follows:

    1. Tw1½: correct Turn
    2. XB-LBO: free leg crossed behind the skating leg below the knee
    3. XF-RBI: free leg crossed in front of the skating leg below the knee
    4. Correct Edge (RFO) after Tw1½

    At SA, Meryl doesn't exit the 1 1/2 twizzle on a right forward outside edge. She exits on a flat and then uses body lean to force the outside edge. That's a huge no-no and should have dropped them a level on that sequence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfgN...outu.be&t=144s

    Quote Originally Posted by mia joy View Post
    If you look at GOE's marking guide, it doesn't say anything about whether the position is "pretty" or "balletic" or whatever you want the positions to be.

    Here's what GOE rewards:
    - entry/exit - it's not about whether it's pretty, but whether it's "controlled", "smooth" and "with ease"
    - ascent/descent - effortless, floating
    - stability
    - change of pose - again, "effortless", "smooth", "flowing". Not "pretty" or "artistic"
    - rotation technique - says it all
    - change of curve
    Actually, those are things that GOE rewards or deducts for and I'm not seeing a lot in the plus side of scoring to merit D/W getting +3 GOE's on their lifts. I don't call shaky blades in lifts being stable or having to yank and pull and grasp on with all might possible being controlled, smooth, or with ease, nor effortless or floating.

    And if you consult page 13 of this season's handbook for referees and judges, you'll find that the there is supposed to be a deduction in GOE for poses that are awkward or not aesthetically pleasing. "Body lines and pose of both partners beautiful and aesthetically pleasing" is worth a point increase, but a team shouldn't be getting that point if it's not actually so.

    But that's what we have in ice dance. We have the equivalent of a clean triple toe loop getting valued as highly as a clean triple triple, with only the GOE setting one above the other. If the triple triple landing gets stuck on the back end, it gets a lesser score than the triple toe loop, even if, on top of this, the entrance to the 3/3 is more difficult than the entrance to the solo triple. And the fans of the skater who does the solo triple point and say the other skater is sloppy and the solo jumper is superior.

    The scoring system allows for this in ice dance, and that's one of the issues with ice dance's legitimacy today. The other problem isn't embedded in the system, but how it's applied. If a team is sloppy in multiple aspects of their skating, but they choreograph to make it a feature instead of a bug, the sport goes along with it instead of holding the team to account in the scores.
    Subway, that's more-or-less how I view the scoring issue. There are some problems with the system itself, but there are also problems in how what is in the system is being applied. It's one of those a little bit of one, a little bit of the other situations.

    So now educating yourself on technique and the judging system governing the sport and using this information as the basis for analysis of the skating and scoring qualifies as "self-certified greatness"? Framing the discussion in the manner in which you have, one that is intended to suppress discussion, is what I would call bullying.
    I guess we need to tell all of the fans of all of the other sports out there, including things like basketball, football, baseball, golf, tennis, running, etc. that they don't need to bother to educate themselves on the rules of the game/sport.

  6. #186
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    "Body lines and pose of both partners beautiful and aesthetically pleasing"
    What are the criteria for beautiful and aesthetically pleasing? Is it in the rules? Otherwise it could be subjective which should be avoided in sport.

    What some here call micro-analysis is just plain analysis. It's just looking at what the skaters are doing. If anyone watches gymnastics, the people doing the commentary for the general public, especially at big events, are often a whole lot more specific and technical in calling what the gymnast is going than any comments I've ever listened to in figure skating. It should be the same for ice dance - for all figure skating. At the moment - and to be honest, always - commenting is a disaster.

  7. #187
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    I don't believe the bullying comment was about being critical about a team's skating. Its about insisting that others agree with your assessment because you throw out a steady stream of videos, pics, and your own opinions about what the judges are looking for.
    I disagree. People aren't offering opinions of what the judges are looking for. They're reading the rulebook which tells us what the judges are looking for. Then looking at the skating to see if it's there and if the scoring is consistent with what the sport itself requires. It's not blind man's bluff when you look at skating.

    At SA, Meryl doesn't exit the 1 1/2 twizzle on a right forward outside edge. She exits on a flat and then uses body lean to force the outside edge. That's a huge no-no and should have dropped them a level on that sequence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfgN...outu.be&t=144s
    Not just a flat but two-footed. If your weight is on one skate but the other blade is clearly skimming the ice is it two foot? Watch the last 1/2 spin.
    Last edited by Subway; 11-08-2013 at 06:31 PM.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subway View Post
    What are the criteria for beautiful and aesthetically pleasing? Is it in the rules? Otherwise it could be subjective which should be avoided in sport.
    That is something I have yet to find in any of the publicly available ISU documents regarding ice dance.

    What some here call micro-analysis is just plain analysis. It's just looking at what the skaters are doing. If anyone watches gymnastics, the people doing the commentary for the general public, especially at big events, are often a whole lot more specific and technical in calling what the gymnast is going than any comments I've ever listened to in figure skating. It should be the same for ice dance - for all figure skating. At the moment - and to be honest, always - commenting is a disaster.
    I don't follow gymnastics nearly to the extent that I follow skating, but I have noticed the same. The gymnastics commentators get very specific when it comes to the good and the bad and what went right and wrong.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subway View Post
    I disagree. People aren't offering opinions of what the judges are looking for. They're reading the rulebook which tells us what the judges are looking for. Then looking at the skating to see if it's there and if the scoring is consistent with what the sport itself requires. It's not blind man's bluff when you look at skating.


    Not just a flat but two-footed. If your weight is on one skate but the other blade is clearly skimming the ice is it two foot? Watch the last 1/2 spin.
    Was that in FD? I click the link it says " This video does not exist. "

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subway View Post
    Not just a flat but two-footed. If your weight is on one skate but the other blade is clearly skimming the ice is it two foot? Watch the last 1/2 spin.
    You're right. It's also two-footed.

    Parapluies, it's from the sd at Skate America.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by dansk8ie View Post
    First and last post!

    Have some of these people seen Virtue Moir skate lately?

    If you don't want to see all this, go back and live in your happy world.

    At the end of the day, the uberness is getting in the way of acknowledging that Davis and White are a superior team.

    Watching and comparing snippets of videos and screenshots all day do nothing to help any argument, where the credential-less people involved are extremely biased and blinded by their own self-certified greatness. Bullying everyone into getting the response you want is not going to change reality!
    I have seen V/M skate lately. Have you? Better question have you seen D/W skate lately?

    I could say the same to you or anyone else who can't handle anyone who dares to question the judging and the ridiculous scores that are handed out at times. You don't want to see it go back and live in your happy world and at the end of the day the uberness is also getting in the way of acknowledging that perhaps not everyone thinks D/W are the superior team. In your eyes fine, but doesn't mean they are in everyones.

    How dare we watch and compare videos! How dare we try to understand a sport we enjoy. Us 'credential-less people', yes because those with credentials are always so accurate and honest and we should just blindly believe them, never question them. They've always been so truthful in the past. and only V/M fans are biased and blind? No ones bullying, except maybe some of you who want to silence those who have questions. That's why no one watches this sport anymore. No one understands it, no one can be bothered to understand it, you're just suppose to accept it, as is, because that's just the way it is? Most people don't want or accept that and that's why the sport is in the state it is. Blown calls, mistakes, they are reviewed and questioned over and over again in other sports. On actual TV, while the game/match/competition is airing! And again, after on the news, and in the papers and magazines. Imagine that! Commentators in other judged sports question the judging on the air, in skating with the new system it's become all too rare yet again. Out of fear or maybe a lack of understanding? Who knows? So god forbid a group of people who actually love and care about the sport dare to look into it, try to understand it, question it? They're nuts and blind and bias and whatever other names you wanna throw their way, because in doing so they are questioning "your team". So rather than participate, explain, educate and discuss, it's dismiss, ignore and name call.

    Oh yes and let me get this straight some of you can't like V/M because you don't like some of their fans? Really? The day I let a few fans dictate which skater I like is the day I no longer watch this sport. Your gonna have to do better than that.

    Not my first but very well could be my last post.
    Last edited by sequins; 11-09-2013 at 12:06 AM.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by literaryfreak View Post
    There is a difference between what I said, after Worlds took place, and the cries that "it's already over" from a certain sect of V/M fans, before D/W and V/M have even met in competition. The doom and gloom is its own self-fulfilling prophecy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitneyskates View Post
    There is no way to prove that any of this is going on. This is what I am talking about. Coming to the conclusion that all these feds, in collusion with the ISU, are coming together against V/M. And deciding that Marina, who was once beloved, has suddenly turned and now, for some reason, either wants V/M to fail, or wouldn't care if they did.
    AFAIK the speculation about D/W losing started happening after they already lost in 2012, so there was actual grounds for discussion. This year, V/M have not even gone head-to-head with D/W and already there are cries that V/M have lost everything. It's a bit silly. Let's wait until something has actually happened before crying foul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    This poll is who you'd bet will win, not who you think deserves to win. I suspect many non-D&W fans and neutrals voted for them.
    I voted for V/M because of what happened at 2012 Worlds.

    Quote Originally Posted by centerstage01 View Post
    Okay, here's my question. If D/W are having such issues and aren't following the rules, why wouldn't their coaches correct this? I mean, they've got the same coaches as V/M so it's not as though such things couldn't be seen especially as they train together. And the judges and coaches are almost always talking to each other so you know someone would have had to have brought it up. Or USFS officials? They know the rule book and if, during Champs Camp for example, these errors were so blatant, why not tell them? D/W are hard workers and I don't doubt would be specifically focusing on improving aspects that were pointed out, just as I'm sure V/M would do the same if their coaches or Canadian officials had problems with one or both programs.
    The theory is that D/W have been told, but they are unable to make the corrections because they are such poor skaters. Yet somehow, they keep winning.

    Quote Originally Posted by ~tapdancer~ View Post
    I don't believe the bullying comment was about being critical about a team's skating. Its about insisting that others agree with your assessment because you throw out a steady stream of videos, pics, and your own opinions about what the judges are looking for.
    The pics and videos do not actually prove anything. The pics would need to be side-by-side views of D/W & V/M performing the exact same move, and show where each of their edges are, where each of their body positions are, and what the score was for the same move. Otherwise it's just apples to oranges (preference) and does not help to win anyone over. Posting a picture of Meryl making a weird face mid-move does not prove anything, either.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    The pics and videos do not actually prove anything. The pics would need to be side-by-side views of D/W & V/M performing the exact same move, and show where each of their edges are, where each of their body positions are, and what the score was for the same move. Otherwise it's just apples to oranges (preference) and does not help to win anyone over. Posting a picture of Meryl making a weird face mid-move does not prove anything, either.
    I don't understand, if someone posts a video or screen cap which demonstrates that a skater is on the incorrect edge, why does it have to be compared to any other skater? An incorrect edge is an objective measure, like a flutz or number of rotations, personal preference or the apples to oranges debate does not even enter the equation.

  14. #194
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    [QUOTE=leafygreens;4044363] ...The theory is that D/W have been told, but they are unable to make the corrections because they are such poor skaters. Yet somehow, they keep winning.]

    to "keep winning". 2013 was the only year D/W have every beaten V/M in the Worlds (2011, IMO, doesn't really count as V/M were out most of the season after Virtue's leg surgery & rehab). With these two teams at the top, it's normal that they will be jockeying back & forth - whoever brings it in the Olympics will win. I like both teams a great deal; D/W have improved a lot and but so have V/M. I think V/M are much superior to D/W because they make the extremely difficult look easy -- they are so naturally talented, graceful, with beautiful lines that D/W will never be able to achieve, no matter how much they practice. Most in the figure skating world look up to V/M as the ones taking ice dance in new & exciting directions in this quad.

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    this is a very interesting thread, bringing the discussion of the top two teams together. i just would like to say that as much as v/m fans have brought forth very technical analysis as to why v/m should be scored on their performances, i yet have to see a single d/w fan post a similar technical argument as to why d/w should be scored such. like how one lift by d/w should be scored higher over one lift by v/m through pictures/videos/technical application of the rule book and such. or to counter one fan's argument that one team does more two-foot skating with a technical discussion of why it's not. that way, there's less of the bickering over nonskating stuff and focus on discussing what's actually done on ice.

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    someone mentioned that meryl employed more of a body lean instead of the required right outside edge exit out of a twizzle in their SA SD. someone also said in the v/m thread that tessa wasnt clean on that edge herself as well in SC. can someone explain these to me? how can you tell between a body lean vs executing the proper/correct edge on an element?

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    This is a long thread. I didn't read but I'm betting on Davis&White.

    Virtue/Moir just beautiful. I love the opening of the SD. But they have technical issues. They are using old lifts or very simple lifts. I didn't like their SD lift, because its old, maybe slow, Scott didn't look comfortable While D/W lift going with music, their lift just not. You can see this from audience reaction. Same for free dance lifts. Only rotational lifts fitting the music. Their first lift looked slow. Like they are traying so hard, especially Scott. They should move this lift where music is powerful. I'm not choreographer or anything like that but this lift is not working for me. I don't love second lift because that lift is very generic, ordinary. Maybe If they can move that lift where music stops, that lift will work better. They had problems with last rotational lift, they will change this I think. Davis/White had new lifts or new entrance. Their lifts fitting the music better. While Virtue/Moir better at steps they are better at twizzles, lifts and spins. I don't know why Virtue/Moir's lifts worse than last year. They always had interesting lifts, except this year.

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subway View Post
    Another area where the sport is lazy or frightened is that VM are the ones who are raising the standard of ice dance by demonstrating what can be done with dance and skating. Playing with three different speeds on their twizzles, exiting a twizzle set with a sustained edge that they arrest in unison are just two examples. In the past, when a skater or skating team has raised the standard, the sport acknowledged this by redefining the highest level upwards. No longer does a triple toe loop merit the highest level in a jumping pass when a skater has demonstrated a triple triple is possible, or a triple lutz. The sport never said, very nice, but let's keep giving highest base value to that triple toe loop executed by itself.

    But that's what we have in ice dance. We have the equivalent of a clean triple toe loop getting valued as highly as a clean triple triple, with only the GOE setting one above the other. If the triple triple landing gets stuck on the back end, it gets a lesser score than the triple toe loop, even if, on top of this, the entrance to the 3/3 is more difficult than the entrance to the solo triple. And the fans of the skater who does the solo triple point and say the other skater is sloppy and the solo jumper is superior.
    This is a great point. I'd like to optimistically think that, as we get further into the CoP dance era, this will change. I don't know, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zilam98 View Post
    someone mentioned that meryl employed more of a body lean instead of the required right outside edge exit out of a twizzle in their SA SD. someone also said in the v/m thread that tessa wasnt clean on that edge herself as well in SC. can someone explain these to me? how can you tell between a body lean vs executing the proper/correct edge on an element?
    There are two key points being discussed here, both in the first Finnstep sequence. One is the last part of Key Point 1, the lady’s step 12, a twizzle of 1.5 rotations entered into on a left forward outside edge. I don’t believe an exit edge is specified for it, as that is usually indicated by a slash and then the abbreviation for the edge. However, Subway pointed out that Meryl’s free foot is touching the ice. Here is the video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfgN...outu.be&t=137s

    Now here is the video of Tessa completing the same step. The boards obstruct our view of the feet, but we can see that her free foot is clearly up and off the ice:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOUD...outu.be&t=117s

    Both teams received credit for this key point.

    The second key point in question is Key Point 2, specifically the lady’s step 21, a twizzle of 1.5 rotations entered into on a right back inside edge and exited on a right forward outside edge. Meryl received credit for this step but does not appear to be a clear right forward outside edge (she appears to lean onto it after placing a flat on the ice). The correct edge is supposed to be achieved right on the exit of the turn, not with a lean after the exit to correct the edge (and in the case of turns involving a change of edge, the correct edge has to be achieved through proper blade placement and not a lean after the blade placement to correct the edge)

    Here is the video of Meryl performing this step:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfgN...outu.be&t=144s

    Tessa exits on a flat and then leans onto the edge and was appropriately marked down for this error (she did not receive credit for this key point, and they dropped one level because of it). Here is the video of her performing this step:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOUD...outu.be&t=123s

    ETA:
    amending this post to give credit to aka_gerbil for pointing out the issue with KP2 and providing video+explanation. Sorry for the oversight.
    Last edited by Bournekraatzfan; 11-09-2013 at 10:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zilam98 View Post
    this is a very interesting thread, bringing the discussion of the top two teams together. i just would like to say that as much as v/m fans have brought forth very technical analysis as to why v/m should be scored on their performances, i yet have to see a single d/w fan post a similar technical argument as to why d/w should be scored such. like how one lift by d/w should be scored higher over one lift by v/m through pictures/videos/technical application of the rule book and such. or to counter one fan's argument that one team does more two-foot skating with a technical discussion of why it's not. that way, there's less of the bickering over nonskating stuff and focus on discussing what's actually done on ice.
    Maybe because we don't have to take anyone's programs apart in order to truly appreciate their skating and talent or to prove their mistakes. For some reason, you do. That's ok but that's your thing. Apparently V/M fans have a lot of free time.

    Besides, it's not like anything we say is gonna change your mind about D/W. You are already prejudiced. You already think they're crappy skaters. Just like nothing you say is gonna change our mind about D/W. To each their own.

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