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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by McIce View Post
    I wonder why V/M always struggled to get the top levels on steps and lifts compared to their top competitors. There must be some root cause. Either their coach/choreographers didn't do their jobs, or they had some problem adapting post 2010 technical requirements.
    They were unable to adapt to post 2010 requirements? Bull

    2010/2011 season - they got level fours on the Golden Waltz their first time at bat. They got level fours on their straight line step sequence at worlds. They didn't get level fours on either of their sequences in the FD, but frankly, when you've had as little training as they did that season and are skating a program of that technical difficulty, it's to be expected. Weaver/Poje last season had this issue at Worlds, and they are another team that can get level fours for footwork.

    2011/2012 season - they got wrongfooted immediately with their curve lift in the SD. I'm not sure if it was a rule change or a different interpretation of the rules (the curve lift was astonishing because it was all continuous motion from Tessa. But one could point out that she doesn't hit one position for three seconds, or two positions overall, so it dropped the level to 2 at Finlandia). They were the first ice dance team to have a straight level four FD at the GPF, won 4CC on the strength of their GOEs and FD levels (they had one level three/rest level fours compared to the silver medalists, who had four level threes in their dance) and also won Worlds that year with higher levels. They did seem to struggle with the Rhumba choctaw which stopped them from getting level four there, but that was true of the top competitors as well at Worlds.

    2012/2013 season - Mistakes were made. There's no denying that. The initial rotational lift in the SD. The spin error at Canadian Nationals (though I wonder if that was an error in calling). But here, I think it's because they come up with ideas that fit the choreography first as opposed to ticking the level boxes. For example, the second step sequence in Carmen - it fit the music brilliantly and the mood of what they were trying to go for. But there really was no way they were going to get level four for it and that was pretty clear at Skate Canada imo. The redone version had less originality, but was more likely to get the levels. When you hardly reuse elements, especially in the beginning, there is a steeper learning curve - you're more likely the make mistakes simply because it's less ingrained. Indeed, they are most likely to reuse elements only when their new idea gets called less than they expected (the Carmen spin, the rotational lift in the SD). When everyone does new things (mainly, the compulsory steps in the SD) they certainly are of the same level (at Worlds, they got both level fours on the YP).

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    They were unable to adapt to post 2010 requirements? Bull

    2010/2011 season - they got level fours on the Golden Waltz their first time at bat. They got level fours on their straight line step sequence at worlds. They didn't get level fours on either of their sequences in the FD, but frankly, when you've had as little training as they did that season and are skating a program of that technical difficulty, it's to be expected. Weaver/Poje last season had this issue at Worlds, and they are another team that can get level fours for footwork.

    2011/2012 season - they got wrongfooted immediately with their curve lift in the SD. I'm not sure if it was a rule change or a different interpretation of the rules (the curve lift was astonishing because it was all continuous motion from Tessa. But one could point out that she doesn't hit one position for three seconds, or two positions overall, so it dropped the level to 2 at Finlandia). They were the first ice dance team to have a straight level four FD at the GPF, won 4CC on the strength of their GOEs and FD levels (they had one level three/rest level fours compared to the silver medalists, who had four level threes in their dance) and also won Worlds that year with higher levels. They did seem to struggle with the Rhumba choctaw which stopped them from getting level four there, but that was true of the top competitors as well at Worlds.

    2012/2013 season - Mistakes were made. There's no denying that. The initial rotational lift in the SD. The spin error at Canadian Nationals (though I wonder if that was an error in calling). But here, I think it's because they come up with ideas that fit the choreography first as opposed to ticking the level boxes. For example, the second step sequence in Carmen - it fit the music brilliantly and the mood of what they were trying to go for. But there really was no way they were going to get level four for it and that was pretty clear at Skate Canada imo. The redone version had less originality, but was more likely to get the levels. When you hardly reuse elements, especially in the beginning, there is a steeper learning curve - you're more likely the make mistakes simply because it's less ingrained. Indeed, they are most likely to reuse elements only when their new idea gets called less than they expected (the Carmen spin, the rotational lift in the SD). When everyone does new things (mainly, the compulsory steps in the SD) they certainly are of the same level (at Worlds, they got both level fours on the YP).
    Really bang on post, Proustable!

    Thank you to those who shared those lovely links from earlier the week! The best ice dance team ever with fabulous, supportive Moms And those awesome pics, Ice Princess! I still go back from time to time to rewatch their old programs. Still as mesmerizing as when I first saw them...

    I'd like V/M to just enjoy this season without pressure of winning titles/medals. Buuuuuut, there's a teeny tinny part of me that really, really wants them to win BIG this season

  3. #243
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    Guys, I have to confess I'm losing faith a little bit. The judges are handing out perfect 10s to D/W like candies these day, even for a slow skate with a few visible mistakes. How does this happen? How could this happen? This will be a long and tormenting season. I pray there is a miracle in the end.

  4. #244
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    YES!

  5. #245
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    So D&W got 112???

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by apple123 View Post
    Guys, I have to confess I'm losing faith a little bit. The judges are handing out perfect 10s to D/W like candies these day, even for a slow skate with a few visible mistakes. How does this happen? How could this happen? This will be a long and tormenting season. I pray there is a miracle in the end.
    I don't have much left either. It does seem like the writing is pretty clearly on the wall But let's remember it's Skate America and let's at least wait until V/M's GP debut. After next weekend I think we will more or less know if we can expect major dumpage this season.

  7. #247
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    It's pointless to worry about D/W's marks because we'll never know how they're really getting such high marks with flawed performances. I'm sure V/M do know what's going on and what they have to do to close the ever-increasing gap - they have to be flawless every outing. I agree, we'll see next weekend. If they're still pulling low marks, then there won't be much of an Olympic competition.

  8. #248
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    I think we have to be strong for our skaters, enjoy the performances and not worry about the marks.
    I too get upset but I just keep the faith.

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    I think DW had strong perfomance. Disagree with marks with first outing, but i am not a judge.
    I any case, guys, remeber, what marks TS got at GP before 2010 OG. And they will fight for gold in team event. They always could skate two programs in Team event.
    I dont think its fair from ISU to give such a big gap for top skaters - VT in pairs, DW in ice dance, Chan in men events and fpr Yu-Na. This show this sakters could have 2 falls and win GM at OG. But TS already have all golds so why not just skate?

    I wish all of you, who will go to SC safe trip and to have great week-end with so many talanted skaters will skate at SC.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by apple123 View Post
    Guys, I have to confess I'm losing faith a little bit. The judges are handing out perfect 10s to D/W like candies these day, even for a slow skate with a few visible mistakes. How does this happen? How could this happen? This will be a long and tormenting season. I pray there is a miracle in the end.
    Just enjoy what you enjoy. Honestly, I think that's all anyone can do. The judges seem to be saying that what D/W do is what ice dancing is for them. It's not for me, and it definitely causes me to lose interest in the sport overall. But the race for Olympic Gold really isn't a race anymore. It's already been signed, sealed and delivered.

  11. #251
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    Pani, so glad to see you are being the positive one, lol. Well, it's true, they already have it all. But it doesn't mean they should be treated unfairly. Is it too much to ask for the judges to open their eyes and see how the programs are really skated?

  12. #252

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    Just because i love this FD so much i ont care about judges and others
    And if DW skated good in FD what could i say? I have big problems with DW SD, but i am not a judge.
    Judges gave good compenent score for VM (yes, not best, but on strong second place), the problem always tech pannel. But its only 3 people who made result of competition, so what could we do?
    I will cry after time after FD, because they every time will tell good buy to there fans

  13. #253

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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    Just enjoy what you enjoy. Honestly, I think that's all anyone can do. The judges seem to be saying that what D/W do is what ice dancing is for them. It's not for me, and it definitely causes me to lose interest in the sport overall. But the race for Olympic Gold really isn't a race anymore. It's already been signed, sealed and delivered.
    Agreed. I barely watch anymore because I no longer understand any of it.

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by DFJ View Post
    Agreed. I barely watch anymore because I no longer understand any of it.
    That's figure skating's loss.

  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by pani View Post
    Just because i love this FD so much i ont care about judges and others
    And if DW skated good in FD what could i say? I have big problems with DW SD, but i am not a judge.
    Judges gave good compenent score for VM (yes, not best, but on strong second place), the problem always tech pannel. But its only 3 people who made result of competition, so what could we do?
    I will cry after time after FD, because they every time will tell good buy to there fans
    I'm with you as well pani! I love both of their programs this season & I'm staying positive about all this. Sending good vibes to V/M this week.

  16. #256
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    I have faith in V/M's ability to deliver their programs flawlessly (not that it will impact the outcome based on what I've seen this quad). I think all we can do is support V/M, enjoy their skating in this last season and wish that they put their best performances on the Olympic ice. If the judges and system have decided to turn a blind eye to what is happening on the ice (and I'm not just talking about V/M but other teams such as the Shibs), what can we do??

  17. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by pani View Post
    I think DW had strong perfomance. Disagree with marks with first outing, but i am not a judge.
    I any case, guys, remeber, what marks TS got at GP before 2010 OG. And they will fight for gold in team event. They always could skate two programs in Team event.
    I dont think its fair from ISU to give such a big gap for top skaters - VT in pairs, DW in ice dance, Chan in men events and fpr Yu-Na. This show this sakters could have 2 falls and win GM at OG. But TS already have all golds so why not just skate?

    I wish all of you, who will go to SC safe trip and to have great week-end with so many talanted skaters will skate at SC.
    B/S also got monster scores as well - near D/W scores in the SD. I don't know why the Russian and US federation thinks overscoring their teams in early grand prix season will 100% guarantee a gold.

  18. #258
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    D&W got those scores from an international panel and looking at the protocols I think the other federations are letting the USFSA know they have this one in the bag. 9.75 and 10.00 thrown out like candy, there is little room there for V&M to wiggle their way in and they haven't even had their GP debut yet. FRA, RUS and ITA all want a medal for their team and their judges have publicly showed their support for D&W at SA. Do the math and wonder where V&M fit into this picture.

    Hopefully Chan can get his shit together and then maybe V&M can fight for gold in the team event. At this point though I don't have a great feeling about Chan and Osmond so it will be tough.

  19. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcg View Post
    D&W got those scores from an international panel and looking at the protocols I think the other federations are letting the USFSA know they have this one in the bag. 9.75 and 10.00 thrown out like candy, there is little room there for V&M to wiggle their way in and they haven't even had their GP debut yet. FRA, RUS and ITA all want a medal for their team and their judges have publicly showed their support for D&W at SA. Do the math and wonder where V&M fit into this picture.
    ITA, bmcg. V/M have been shut out of this before they even compete on the GP. Given that France, Russia, and Italy all want medals and have put their full support behind their top teams, unlike SC with V/M, I think V/M are going to be completely forced off the podium in Sochi. Thanks to politics, I'm guessing they'll be 5th, maybe 4th. Keep in mind I don't think the skating is in anyway going to match the judging, I just think this is how they'll place the teams. The fact that they're giving gold to D/W is obvious. B/S will likely end up with silver as the Russian fed has said they want it for them. C/L or P/B will be the bronze medalist, with the other in 4th. That puts us to fifth and V/M.

    It sucks and is in no way fair, but that's the truth of the situation.
    Last edited by aka_gerbil; 10-20-2013 at 09:21 PM.

  20. #260
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    God, I'm depressed. Never in all the years this thread has been going has the mood been like this. It's like we've come to the end of the road.

    This is what it must have been like to be a B/A fan circa 2009.

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