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  1. #41
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    Golightly, thank you for quoting bournekraatzfan's post in the new thread. She, you and everybody else are spot on about how the difficulty within technical elements and movements V&M do keep going unrecognized. And these are things that make what Scott and Tessa do so difficult whether that difficulty is more obvious as in the Carmen program or more subtle as it is in the new FD. These are the things that place them above the rest of the field. Or at least these are things that by the rulebooks should be gaining them points.

    It's seems the crowds and judges have been condition to think difficult are only those blatant things that smack you in the face. The lifts with the changes in position (although V&M excel at those as well) and the spins but the rest; the things that you might have to look a little close to appreciate aren't appreciated.

    The ISU seems to be enouraging the skaters from all the skating disciplines to do little more than string together the elements; connect the dots. Many of the difficult connecting moves, skating with deep edges, being able to hold those deep edges throughout constant changes of foot placement and upperbody postition don't seem to mean much. It's why I was so happy and continue to applaud Jeff Buttle winning Worlds a few years back. IMO the judges got it right; not just the big tricks but all the inbetween movements as well. It reminds me of how once upon a time Dick Button, as he watched Lucinda Ruh spin (fast, centered and maintaining that speed through changes of position - different creative postitions) that things like her spinning wasn't counted enough.

    On a positive note, I've observed that with each viewing of the new piece, we notice the things that everyone has put into words more and more. I find with V&M's programs every time I see them something jumps out at me that impresses me with the difficulty inherent in those moves the more I watch. With Tessa and Scott being careful to pace themselves over the season, hopefully (I think) the judges will start picking up on all those things as well.

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  3. #43

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    Tessa looks so much shorter than Scott in those photos yet when they skate, the difference doesn't seem to great. Am I not seeing things correctly ... again?

    BTW, thanks for the link, pani.
    Crazy about sports!

  4. #44
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    When I met them at the M&G @csoi in Van this year she looked to be about 5 inches shorter than Scott

  5. #45
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    Carmen, it seems to me the sport cares about these things and rewards it when Patrick Chan does it, but not when ice dancers do it. And that's insane.

  6. #46
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    gattokiller has added an edit of "Seasons" to youtube:
    [2013-2014 FD] The Seasons

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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcg View Post
    The problem is the difference in the way both teams skate. V&M are textbook skaters, smooth, great flow, great edges so the slightest deviation, the most miniscule adjustment is detected. D&W don't hold edges, hop and skip throughout their programs and are often on two feet.That makes it much harder for viewers to detect mistakes because their "style" is to skate choppy and hoppy so when they lose an edge or hit a toepick it's much harder to pick up because their choreography incorporates all these things.
    I would like to address the "toe hopping" fallacy.

    - Have you ever tried to stand on your toe picks? It's harder than standing on the center of the blade.
    - Have you ever tripped over a toe pick? It is a hard part of the blade to control if something goes wrong. You're not going to try being on the toe unless you have complete mastery.
    - The USFSA Junior & Senior MIF tests (the highest tests) include toe turns in the patterns, which means they're so hard that only the highest level skaters are testing them. The USFSA has toe turns in the highest level tests because they believe that toe turns should be included in the mastery of MIF.
    - The USFSA rule book includes a list of allowed ice dance maneuvers. Since these maneuvers are listed in the rule book, they are clearly meant to be utilized in competition.
    "Section DG 5.00 - Steps: DG 5.20 - Toe Step: A step where the skater steps from one toe to the other without jumping."
    "Section DG 7.00 - Spins, Lifts, Jumps and Movements: DG 7.03 - Jumps and Dance Jumps: C. Hops: A small jump without revolution."

    Maybe the judges think "toe hopping" is hard, and that's why they are rewarding D/W. No conspiracy necessary.

  9. #49
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    V/M don't stand on the center of the blade though. They skate with deep edges + complex closed holds. That to me is more difficult than open, two-footed skating + skips.

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    Complete mastery of real dancing on toe picks

    Right? But I am sure there are others here who can explain better.

    ETA: Photo version of Latin FD opening dance sequence. A favorite photo of mine actually. Awesome hip rotation from Tessa. On toe picks no less.
    Last edited by Sahararainfall; 10-11-2013 at 09:24 PM.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcg View Post
    D&W don't hold edges, hop and skip throughout their programs and are often on two feet. That makes it much harder for viewers to detect mistakes because their "style" is to skate choppy and hoppy so when they lose an edge or hit a toepick it's much harder to pick up because their choreography incorporates all these things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sahararainfall View Post
    It looks like they are "hopping and skipping throughout their program on two feet" in that gif, so toe hopping must not really be as big of a deficiency of skating ability as you are making it seem.

  12. #52
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    Virtue and Moir, número 31: The Best Is Yet To Come

    A gif of the opening seconds of V/M's 2011 FD is not representative of the whole program, in which they used their skate blades to get from place to place since the sport is skating, not toe picking.

    There are plenty of skaters and teams who have utilized pick work in choreographic highlights. There is a difference in using pick work in that fashion and using it to cover large stretches of ice instead of using the blade edge.
    Last edited by aka_gerbil; 10-11-2013 at 09:51 PM.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    It looks like they are "hopping and skipping throughout their program on two feet" in that gif, so toe hopping must not really be as big of a deficiency of skating ability as you are making it seem.
    I'd say that you are the one who is making something seem the way it is not now, although I choose to believe that it's unintentional - probably you don't remember (or haven't seen ) Tessa and Scott's Latin FD very well. If you would remember then you'd know that what that gif shows was a little moment in their program, not "hopping and skipping throughout their program on two feet".


    Edit: I see that aka_gerbil already responded to that quite appropriately.

  14. #54
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    No one is talking about bits of choreography like V&M do in that latin dance, that D&W did in their SD just before the polka pattern last season or that is done in the Finnstep this year.

    We are talking about using your toepicks to propel themselves forward, to gain speed instead of their edges. That sort of thing that made your coach yell at you in stroking class "I don't want to hear those toepicks"!

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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    It looks like they are "hopping and skipping throughout their program on two feet" in that gif, so toe hopping must not really be as big of a deficiency of skating ability as you are making it seem.
    Of course you'd confuse actual dancing with hopping. Nothing to do there I would advice you to look at the hips. See, they are on their toe in order to help their hips sway and produce a latin ballroom movement. See? There is a purpose rooted in dancing. However, during step sequences and transitions, in ice dancing, what is the a purpose to toe picking other than jumping from A to B? Where's the action from hip to toe? Where's the edge hold? So, yeah, toe picking is, undoubtedly, a technique, but it should never be aimless. The fact that ice dancers, and mind you, not just Davis and White, but many others, use it to transition? If you see nothing wrong with that, there's nothing I can do. So, thank you very much for trying so valiantly to defend it instead of simply denying that they do do that, as many others simply do

  16. #56
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    That "hopping and skipping" is just the opening dance sequence, not the whole "program in two feet." It is also a direct translation on ice of real Latin ballroom dance movements. "Skipping and hopping" as part of choreography to translate off ice movements on ice (like in this Latin bit and Like in D/W SD last year) is much different from skipping around the rink to get from point A to point B.

    ETA: Okay. I guess others explained it much better.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    It looks like they are "hopping and skipping throughout their program on two feet" in that gif, so toe hopping must not really be as big of a deficiency of skating ability as you are making it seem.
    Theres no skipping in that GIF....

  18. #58

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    Methinks someone has wandered into the wrong topic.

    Please LG, go back to your regular reading topics. We really don't need you to come in here and tell us what the USA considers to be a difficult MIF.
    Crazy about sports!

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    I would like to address the "toe hopping" fallacy.

    - Have you ever tried to stand on your toe picks? It's harder than standing on the center of the blade.
    - Have you ever tripped over a toe pick? It is a hard part of the blade to control if something goes wrong. You're not going to try being on the toe unless you have complete mastery.
    - The USFSA Junior & Senior MIF tests (the highest tests) include toe turns in the patterns, which means they're so hard that only the highest level skaters are testing them. The USFSA has toe turns in the highest level tests because they believe that toe turns should be included in the mastery of MIF.
    - The USFSA rule book includes a list of allowed ice dance maneuvers. Since these maneuvers are listed in the rule book, they are clearly meant to be utilized in competition.
    "Section DG 5.00 - Steps: DG 5.20 - Toe Step: A step where the skater steps from one toe to the other without jumping."
    "Section DG 7.00 - Spins, Lifts, Jumps and Movements: DG 7.03 - Jumps and Dance Jumps: C. Hops: A small jump without revolution."

    Maybe the judges think "toe hopping" is hard, and that's why they are rewarding D/W. No conspiracy necessary.
    What skating skills/ MIF turns are you referring to as "toe turns" ? Are you saying that the actual turn pattern requires skaters to use their toe picks? No one said that using toe picks was illegal, just that it doesn't take more skill to master one's toe picks. The mastery of the running edges is a much more difficult and desirable skill in figure skating. Sorry but this seems like such an obvious statement. it feels kind of silly to write it.

  20. #60
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    To be completely fair, Tessa and Scott also do some bits of running and really small hops in their FD - particularly in the second half and the second step sequence. Of course, in their case it's also to accentuate the music. But the same could be said at least about some cases of running and hopping in Meryl and Charlie's programs. That said, I do realize that Tessa and Scott do that less anyway. I also know that this is not exactly about toe pick technique, or whatever it is called, I am just referring to the ongoing on and off discussion about running and hopping in Meryl and Charlie's programs.

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