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  1. #1
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    Rivals from same country where national judges preference differs from international

    Any examples where national judges had a different order of preference compared to international judges for rivals from the same country?

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    My first thought on seeing this question was Greg Louganis and Bruce Kimball, but that's the wrong sport.

    This is a hard one because any country's judges tend to give supporting marks to any skater of theirs seen as a new hope, but I think US judges preferred Kwan to Lipinski. Not that Kwan didn't get strong marks from other country's judges, but I was always surprised at the generous marks Tara got internationally.

    Sticking with US ladies, it seemed sometimes like US judges were more generous to Flatt than international judges, while Nagasu seemed preferred by other countries' judges.

    One other example might be Yagudin and Plushenko. With all his international accomplishments, Yagudin was never Russian national champion. (Seems impossible, but it's true.)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian..._Championships

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    I always felt Tonya Harding was far more likely, to varying degrees of course, to beat both Yamaguchi and Kerrigan outside Nationals than at Nationals. The 89 Nationals is a great example. Harding skated brilliantly, yet then tiny jumping and no style Yamaguchi came from way behind after figures to somehow beat her anyway. At Worlds the judges placed Kristi 6th, and Harding probably would have won the silver behind Ito with her Nationals performances (including figures). She would have walloped that years version of Kristi in front of an international panel, that is for sure.

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    Cohen vs Kwan is possibly one to a minor degree. Cohen never beat Kwan at Nationals but beat her at both the 2004 and 2005 Worlds.

    Cohen vs Hughes is another but to a larger degree. Cohen beat Hughes twice at Nationals, but I dont believe ever beat Hughes at an international event apart from the 2003 Worlds where both didnt medal.

    Butyrskaya complains the Russian federation favored Slutskaya, yet she actually had more success against Slutskaya at Russian Nationals than anywhere else. Slutskaya did not win her first Russian title until 2000, and Maria had won the 5 previous.

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    Aren't most of the judges at Nationals also qualified to judge at international events? I'm not sure we're talking about two completely separate sets of judges.
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

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    I had forgotten one major one. Callegeri & Camerlengo were in the top 6 at every Worlds and Olympics from 91-93 but never won the Italian Nationals except their final season in 1993. The Italian team of Anna Croci & Luca Mantovani who never finished higher than 13th in a World or Olympic event beat them for the Italian title in 1990, 1991, and 1992.

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    Nikodinov and Hughes. The USFSA kept pushing Sarah since 1999 nationals, and I guess it ultimately worked out for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    Nikodinov and Hughes. The USFSA kept pushing Sarah since 1999 nationals, and I guess it ultimately worked out for them.
    Well Nikodinov never beat Hughes at an international event I know of. Even in 1999 when a subpar Nikodinov finished above 13 year old Hughes (who skated very well) at Nationals, Hughes placed much higher at Worlds that same year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I always felt Tonya Harding was far more likely, to varying degrees of course, to beat both Yamaguchi and Kerrigan outside Nationals than at Nationals. The 89 Nationals is a great example. Harding skated brilliantly, yet then tiny jumping and no style Yamaguchi came from way behind after figures to somehow beat her anyway. At Worlds the judges placed Kristi 6th, and Harding probably would have won the silver behind Ito with her Nationals performances (including figures). She would have walloped that years version of Kristi in front of an international panel, that is for sure.
    This was one aI thought of as a good example. I think the international judges preferered Harding (up until 91), and I think if she had landed one more jump at the 91 worlds she would have won that title over Yamaguchi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Well Nikodinov never beat Hughes at an international event I know of. Even in 1999 when a subpar Nikodinov finished above 13 year old Hughes (who skated very well) at Nationals, Hughes placed much higher at Worlds that same year.
    Nikodinov finished above Hughes at the 99 fall proam. It was pretty clear that the judging panel at 01 worlds was more partial to Nikodinov. I think if 2002 nationals was skated under an international panel, Nikodinov would have beaten Hughes in the short program. It was so wrong that she didn't.

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    In 2010-11, Canadian judges preferred Crone & Poirier, while international judges favoured Weaver & Poje.

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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Aren't most of the judges at Nationals also qualified to judge at international events? I'm not sure we're talking about two completely separate sets of judges.
    No, only a limited number of judges in the U.S. are eligible to judge internationally (and an even smaller number ISU Championships), a very small subset of the National judges. In Singles & Pairs, there are 19 total ISU Championship judges and an additional 10 judges who can judge international competitions, but not ISU Championships. I think there are close to 200 National Singles & Pairs judges (I counted several years ago but they aren't listed all in one place and I don't feel like counting up the ones in the USFSA directory now).

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    Yagudin and Plushenko come to mind. Whereas Yagudin beat Plushenko very often on the international stage he never managed to beat him for Russian National title.
    "I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you're not in this world to live up to mine."

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    Perhaps Flatt vs Nagasu. USFS thought Flatt was the saviour and marked her that way at Nationals 2010 but at most international competitions where she competed against Nagasu (2010 Olympics, Worlds, 2011 4CCs) Nagasu handily won PCS and the gap got widened even further after Vancouver.

    In any event it's evident that the judges never warmed up to Flatt - they never let her win a GP or medal at any senior internationals no matter how much of a rock she was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    The 89 Nationals is a great example. Harding skated brilliantly, yet then tiny jumping and no style Yamaguchi came from way behind after figures to somehow beat her
    I totally agree. I remember at the time thinking that Harding had outskated (big jumps, great edges and speed) Yamaguchi at that nationals. But the USFSA was totally pushing Yamaguchi (main reason I was always a little cold to her). She totally should have been sent to worlds instead of Yamaguchi.

    There's also the old case of Janet Lynn and Julie Lynn Holmes, Holmes lost to Lynn at Nationals 69-71 while Holmes outranked Lynn at worlds. That was probably due to Magnussen (probably) placing between them in figures putting Lynn further behind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Cohen vs Kwan is possibly one to a minor degree. Cohen never beat Kwan at Nationals but beat her at both the 2004 and 2005 Worlds.
    But Kwan didn't skate at Worlds the way she did at Nationals. And Michelle beat Sasha in the LP at 2004 Worlds, although she made a mistake and was not a Gold contender after QR and SP.

    In France, Eric Millot was favored against Philippe Candeloro at the beginning from 1989 to 1993.

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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    But Kwan didn't skate at Worlds the way she did at Nationals. And Michelle beat Sasha in the LP at 2004 Worlds, although she made a mistake and was not a Gold contender after QR and SP.

    In France, Eric Millot was favored against Philippe Candeloro at the beginning from 1989 to 1993.
    Michelle at the 2005 Nationals was nothing extraordinary, especialy in the LP. Not even much different from Worlds. Sasha made mistakes there too but it was obvious by the scoring a clean Kwan would have beaten a clean Cohen there, but it was also obvious by the scoring at Worlds the same year the reverse was definitely true (albeit under a different system).

    Millot placed higher in international competitions than Philippe until fall 1992.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moka-Ananas View Post
    Yagudin and Plushenko come to mind. Whereas Yagudin beat Plushenko very often on the international stage he never managed to beat him for Russian National title.
    Yes,Yagudin often beat Plushenko when Plush was 15, 16 y.o kid. But when Plu grew up, he was 17, he beat Yag in internatinal competitions, too. He won in ECH 2000, but lost in WCH, and in 2001 Plu beat Yag everywhere. 2002 was Yagudin's year again. And Plush beat Yagudin at Ru Nat Champs? Yes, because that kid had such a great and difficult programs like Yagudin's and he was flawless, or he made less mistakes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Michelle at the 2005 Nationals was nothing extraordinary, especialy in the LP. Not even much different from Worlds. Sasha made mistakes there too but it was obvious by the scoring a clean Kwan would have beaten a clean Cohen there, but it was also obvious by the scoring at Worlds the same year the reverse was definitely true (albeit under a different system).
    I do think the scoring systems made a huge difference. I also suspect outside factors came into play for both Nationals and Worlds to explain the scoring. I mean Kwan was going for a record at Nationals.
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    Great examples, and nice memories, thanks everyone!

    But DUH, how about the most obvious one ~ Lipinski vs. Kwan, especially at the 1998 Olympics.

    That said, the first one that came to mind when I saw the title of this thread was my fav, Rachael Flatt, whom imho was robbed of at least two places at the 2010 Olympics, where she skated her best and she skated her heart out per usual. Of course she was never the same after that once she got tendonitis and stress fracture in her foot, but what she managed to accomplish throughout her entire career thus far while dealing with bulging discs in her back is remarkable!

    To see her skate live is something else; she made me tear up both times I saw her at Skate America in 2010 & 2012. She really did outskate everyone in 2010; the SO she got was well-deserved, but alas I honestly think the real reason why the international judges do not look her is because she didn't have the body of a ballerina (the Russian men's 1994 Olympic Champion even called her fat) and that she was consistent, even though her jumps were not as big as her European counterparts, though fully rotated. Lol I think that irritated them. And of course her bulging discs in her back prevented her from doing those gumby spins, but what she had she worked well with. And let us not forget she had that once-in-a-lifetime ability only the truly greats have - mental toughness. Jmho.

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