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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post
    I don't have a problem with people criticizing the statements of the skaters, just so long as they don't start making it seem like the skaters are responsible for the law itself. That is to say, I think it needs to be kept in perspective.
    Very true, and should be repeated. I guess my problem is that I see indifference as thinking that the issue is unimportant. I shouldn't confuse that with someone being complicit. What makes the trap easier is that unlike those who are responsible for the law or the USOC and USFS, the skaters are seemingly much more personable and available for direct communication.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  2. #82
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    The skaters are available for direct communication on the issue because questions about it are asked when they would usually be discussing their programs, training and other aspects to the run-up to the Olympics. The media summit is at least the third time many of the skaters have been asked to address the law. Most of the skaters aren't saying anything they didn't say at Champs Camp, or the US Figure Skating Classic. If they are asked again at Skate America and nationals they will likely repeat themselves, again. Questions (and calls for action) to the leaders of the IOC, USOC and perhaps US political figures would be more fruitful, IMO.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by nylynnr View Post
    The skaters are available for direct communication on the issue because questions about it are asked when they would usually be discussing their programs, training and other aspects to the run-up to the Olympics. The media summit is at least the third time many of the skaters have been asked to address the law. Most of the skaters aren't saying anything they didn't say at Champs Camp, or the US Figure Skating Classic. If they are asked again at Skate America and nationals they will likely repeat themselves, again. Questions (and calls for action) to the leaders of the IOC, USOC and perhaps US political figures would be more fruitful, IMO.
    US political figures? Those clowns can't even keep the government running.

  4. #84

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    It's not about measuring how productive it is. People are just naturally reacting to something they don't like.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  5. #85

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    I guess I choose to focus on Ashley, not those who don't offer an opinion on the subject or who don't speak out. It seems to take attention away from the important issues when the focus shifts to criticizing comments made by athletes that are basically not commenting and/or not taking a stand on the issue.

    O-

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterG View Post
    I think that's kind of harsh. All these skaters are just a matter of years out of their 20's (and Gold at 18 is still in her teens). Even the elder two (Lysacek and Abbott, both at 28) are less than a decade from their teens. How many people in their 20's were standing on a world stage championing human rights? It's great there is someone like Wagner who has the inner strength to stand up against injustice, but I don't think we should expect it from everyone. Especially when they are all still relatively young.
    Thank you, Peter G.

    We should all be as brave and as fearless as Ashley has found it in her heart and spirit to be on this issue. But all those criticizing the other athletes, walk in their shoes first, review your own history of standing up and speaking out on a controversial topic, particularly as a young person still growing up in the world. Ash deserves kudos, but the other skaters do not deserve scorn.
    Last edited by aftershocks; 10-02-2013 at 08:54 PM.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by judiz View Post
    Seriously? There are tons of young adults in their early 20's who do speak out against discrimination and bullying. They are the leaders of tomorrow and they should be encouraged to make a difference.
    Yes, but not everyone is a leader. These athletes are already under an inordinate amount of pressure - to expect them to champion a particular cause may be asking too much.

    As for Evan and Jeremy, they are not kids, they are adults, who are old enough to vote, be drafted and get elected to public office in certain places.
    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    Exactly. The minimum age to hold a seat in the House of Representatives is 25. They are not in any way "kids". Gracie is. The others are not.
    Many of these skaters are "kids" in the sense that many of them have led very sheltered lives with a very singular focus. It varies by skater, of course, but many of them still have much of their life details like living arrangements, meals, transportation, laundry, etc. attended to by either a parent or coach, to allow them to fully focus on training. Heck, even outside of skating, everyone matures at a different rate, and while there are many fully engaged and participating 25 year olds who are responsible adults, there are probably just as many still living at home with mom and dad with little idea of how to manage a budget, cook a meal or possibly even do laundry, much less any in depth knowledge or awareness of world affairs. So I agree with Peter.
    "I miss footwork that has any kind of a discernible pattern. The goal of a step sequence should not be for a skater to show the same ice coverage as a Zamboni and take about as much time as an ice resurface. " ~ Zemgirl, reflecting on a pre-IJS straight line sequence

  8. #88
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    Bravo and much applause! Way to go, Ashley!
    Angie
    “I have not failed. I’ve just found 10,000 ways that won’t work.” ~ Thomas A. Edison

  9. #89
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    The mezzo-soprano Joyce DiDonato turned down a gig in Russia, but even she had doubts about it:

    She is aware of the pitfalls of artist activism. "I have to choose my battle--I'm no politician," she told me. "I know that, as an American artist, I'm not in a position to sit in judgment. Should I not sing in Texas, because of what's happening to women's rights there? But I can't paralyze myself, either. I don't know if turning down the opera in Moscow was the right decision. Should I have gone there and spoken out? Should I have got myself detained? If I don't go, does it mean they're winning? In the end, it was just an instinctive thing. I couldn't do it."
    ("The New Yorker," October 7, 2013, profile by Alex Ross)

    I'm sure the Moscow slot in DiDonato's schedule could have been re-booked in an instant, and she is not someone who spent her entire life working towards a goal whose pinnacle is an Olympic Games in Russia. However, it does show that a 44-year-old media savvy person in the limelight had her own doubts about the right way to go and didn't think it was all that simple. Why should it be simple for the skaters?
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  10. #90
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    This doesn't surprise me at all.

    Out of all the US ladies, Ashley seems the most down to earth and genuine.

    No fake smiles for my girl Ashley! Tell em'! Go Wagner 2014!!!

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by OliviaPug View Post
    I guess I choose to focus on Ashley, not those who don't offer an opinion on the subject or who don't speak out. It seems to take attention away from the important issues when the focus shifts to criticizing comments made by athletes that are basically not commenting and/or not taking a stand on the issue.

    O-
    ITA. It's an important issue to her and I applaud Ashley for speaking out, but some of the criticisms against those who chose not to take up the issue make me uncomfortable.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by elka_sk8 View Post
    ITA. It's an important issue to her and I applaud Ashley for speaking out, but some of the criticisms against those who chose not to take up the issue make me uncomfortable.
    Well, those who chose not to take up the issue make me uncomfortable, as well.

  13. #93
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    Another factor seemingly is that perhaps other skaters share the same concerns and views expressed by Ashley, but are not able to articulate their feelings as well as she did (or are nervous about saying what they feel because those who did do so but not very eloquently or inoffensively, were heavily criticized).

    I suspect that Ashley is not necessarily viewing her comments as being brave, just as being true to herself, her beliefs and her principles. But yeah, she definitely has a brave heart which is evident not only in this instance.

  14. #94

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    I am very glad Ashley spoke plainly on the subject. Somebody should.
    But the issue IS complicated. NOT the gay equality itself, but the question of "to go or not to go, to speak or not and when". I wish we would all stop calling for other people to make statements.
    Kwanfan1818, I love DiDonato and admire her stance. Though I do not blame Netrebko for not coming out on Met's Opening Night with a sign " Tchaikovsky was gay and societal pressure ruined his life" either ( though it would be wonderful if she addressed it in one of her interviews). But as a different example ( and I hope he forgives me if he reads it for making an example out of him)- a good friend of mine ( gay) was invited to perform alongside his life partner in one of the countries where homosexuality is completely illegal. They both went together. My main thought was - just be careful!!! His take- I will not let their screwed-up politics affect my life and my career choices. This is what I do, and I am going to be good at it.
    And this is just as valuable- not letting discrimination win by living one's life. So perhaps it will take everything. Some people speaking out, some people doing what they are best at, being who they are.
    Backtracking- I liked Ashley in her Skating Lesson Interview a great deal, now I like her even more. But we have zero right to pressure athletes.
    Last edited by dinakt; 10-03-2013 at 07:47 PM.
    improving my ballad- like lines

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman View Post
    Getting lambasted is a part of life.
    It's amazing that the movement of "No Bullying!" is going out of its way to bully others.

    Quote Originally Posted by judiz View Post
    Seriously? There are tons of young adults in their early 20's who do speak out against discrimination and bullying. They are the leaders of tomorrow and they should be encouraged to make a difference. As for Evan and Jeremy, they are not kids, they are adults, who are old enough to vote, be drafted and get elected to public office in certain places.
    So everyone who is old enough to vote should be an activist, and an articulate champion of each community's issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by suef View Post
    Well, those who chose not to take up the issue make me uncomfortable, as well.
    It makes you uncomfortable that not every person is an activist? Are you uncomfortable with most of the world's population?

    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the people who made some sort of "no comment" response hasn't been criticized to the degree as those who sort of go beyond that.
    That's not exactly true. There have been people demanding to hear what certain athletes have to say about the issue, as if their silence means they hate humanity.

    Quote Originally Posted by leapfrogonice View Post
    I'm not sure that I "get" why those who are choosing to not make an individualized strong statement are getting almost put on a "list" like they are somehow betraying their obligations as Olympians, by people like Phil Hersh.
    I agree. It's illogical.

  16. #96
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    Just as the skaters are allowed their own opinions, I am allowed to have mine. And I am allowed to disagree with what they are saying, or with what they are not saying, and form my own opinions about it. And, I am allowed to chose not to support, or be fans of, certain skater... for this, or any other reason.

  17. #97

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    I think the fact that people are framing the idea of just having an opinion or at least being sensitive enough to the issue to avoid saying something that could be construed as insensitive is being an activist (which some people use as a dirty word) says a lot about the differences in how people view this issue (or any issue).

    Also, I think there's a difference between bullying and being critical. Although, I have no doubt some people are using this as an excuse to excessively go after skaters and athletes due to their own personal dislike of said skater/athlete. However, there's no reason to demean the whole "No Bullying!" movement nor does it do much to twist it into something that it's not (meaning that the No Bullying! means never being critical...which is not what it means).
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  18. #98

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    Philadelphia Inqy article: refers to Agnes' position as "ostrichlike" (eg: burying her head in the sand to ignore the situation) and has interesting Johnny take (if he were to go to Sochi, he'd "risk arrest").

    http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...226549711.html
    Last edited by Yazmeen; 10-07-2013 at 07:36 PM.
    "Once you've skated together long enough, and you're really good friends, you can close your eyes, put your hand out and she's right there." Joe Dolkiewicz, 2011 US Novice Pairs Bronze Medalist

  19. #99
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    Agnes addressed her statement in an icenetwork article.
    http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2013/...ia-trains-hard

    "I was so nervous, my mind was racing, and I feel like I was a blank when it was time to answer stuff," Zawadzki said. "A prime example of me getting tongue-tied was the question about the Russian legislation. Of course, I personally don't agree with the Russian legislation because I believe that everyone should have equal rights, but I'm training really hard and trying to make the Olympic team because that has always been my dream."

    So it sounds like she was unprepared to answer the question and didn't phrase it well. Proper media training, they should have known that question was coming!

  20. #100

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    I am glad Agnes took the time to better word her response. And I like what she just said. If I based my friendships on people's initial reactions to all gay issues, I would have no friends. Heck I'd hate myself and I'm gay. Go, Agnes!

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