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  1. #141

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    That is AWESOME that there will be 10 kiss 'n' crys
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    Plushenko has, however, said that if he feels like he can't do four clean programs he will withdraw and allow someone else to take the spot.
    Does any figure skater have 5 Olympic medals? Plushenko has a shot at making history if I'm not mistaken.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    I missed that: it's an interesting twist. Given that V/T don't really want to do it, and I'm not sure about B/S, that could allow Russia to pull out, especially since they don't much care if they piss off the ISU.
    I doubt Russia wants to pull out. They're pretty much one of 3 countries contending for a medal. If they don't screw up royally (which unfortunately is very possible), they should be on the podium. IMO the only likely individual medal for Russia is V&T in pairs, so they really ought to be focusing their resources on the team event instead of how to get out of it. They have very strong contenders in all disciplines, but enough inconsistency to miss the podium in dance and ladies. As much as I would love for Plushy to win another individual medal and avenge Vancouver, I think he can do more for Russia in the team event. He should be able to place in the top 3 in the men's team portion and assist Russia for a medal there. I'm not sure yet whether he will be able to compete for a medal individually (we'll see in a few weeks ) but who possibly could be a better team captain for Russia? If he helped them get a medal it would be so emotional, like Khorkina with Russian team in Athens. That would be his 4th medal, so even if he didn't medal individually it would be pretty damn impressive. If anything it would make more sense to put him the team event and then pull him out if he legitimately can't skate his other event. Any other guy in the team event would just kill their chances. Thank God it's not like WTT where you have two single skaters per country.

  4. #144
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    Why do athletes not want to do team? For many athletes it is their best chance for a medal - take the US or Russian ladies - - and surely the US men - they have a better chance of medaling in team than individually perhaps. And it is an Olympic medal - if you win gold you will always be considered an OGM, just like we see in swimming or gymnastics. Maybe it takes some more time to get prestige but it seems the athletes are treating it as some horrible chore - it is an OLympic medal after all!

    I get that it could be added stress, but I would think athletes would welcome doing another "practice" on Olympic ice. Can't they see it as just a chance to get before Olympic judges, and practice their program? Many of their competitors are on teams too so most are in the same boat as their competitors, though maybe some like those from Spain or South Korea could be seen as having more rest time. However it could also be an advantage - unlike those from Korea, you get to do a full run through of your program in competition mode - that would have to help you for the "real" competition a few days later

  5. #145
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    Patrick Chan remarked in an interview that a team medal before the individual events would take some of the pressure off, and encourage everyone.

  6. #146
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    Many of the athletes who have been on record as saying they won't do it or will only do the SD/SP are those with the best chances to win an individual medal. No one knows how this will play emotionally or how to pace the Team Event within the context of a major competition, the most important one in their careers for most of the contenders. They risk injury. They risk the judges pre-judging them for the individual events on the basis of their performances in the Team Event, especially when rivalries are close. They risk leaving their best performance on the table in the Team Event. They risk getting spooked by a not-so-great-performance or a great performance that is still ranked lower than their rivals.

    Despite that, I agree that Russia should want to do the Team Event -- they are likely to vie for gold with Canada, and it would be a great way to kick off the Games for them. The Team Event is Plushenko's best chance of another gold -- he won't be up against multiple men from Japan, just one in each program -- and if he doesn't think he can get through another two programs well, he'll have plenty of medical reasons to allow the alternate to take his place in the individual event. However, I could see strategic reasons to not do it, especially with possible medals on the line for B/S and Lipnitskaia, if she makes the team, if they don't want to compete or if Piseev thinks it's unwise. I'm not willing to write off B/S's chances on the basis of CoC. GPF should show how Lipnitskaia stacks up against Asada and Kostner.
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 11-03-2013 at 06:18 AM.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  7. #147
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    Yeah I understand all that but the upside - an Olympic medal - seems like it is worth the risk. Usually the favorite does not win OGM often so for many people this is a more guaranteed shot at gold. They will forever be an OGM. Even for Chan he might have a better shot at OGM in team than individual, or Virtue and Moir too since it is so hard to prejudge individual events,

    Also I would think it is an advantage to go on Olympic ice. They can learn from mistakes, tweak things when they see their protocols. They can get injured just from practice too so how does one additional performance increase their risk of injury? Many of the same judges I assume will judge GPF, etc so how is prejudgment even relevant - they could be prejudged by judges based on videotapes of their nationals performance too or their performance at GPF. Also the judges will be different I assume anyway. Finally, the 2 performances are not related - if you do bad on team day it does not increase or decrease your propensity to do good or bad on individual day.

    The one relevant consideration is it perhaps messes with training especially for the ladies who compete last. Maybe if there was not team they would stay at their offsite training location longer and not be in the media spotlight. Probably winning OGM and then having the media hound you could serve as a distracting presence. Also, the adrenaline from winning OGM can either hurt or help individual performances. It could relieve pressure on some while for others it could increase. It will definitely affect dynamics but it might not be negative.

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blondie12 View Post
    Yeah I understand all that but the upside - an Olympic medal - seems like it is worth the risk. Usually the favorite does not win OGM often so for many people this is a more guaranteed shot at gold. They will forever be an OGM.
    Although it looks like Canada and Russia have the best chances for gold, that's not guaranteed either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blondie12 View Post
    Even for Chan he might have a better shot at OGM in team than individual, or Virtue and Moir too since it is so hard to prejudge individual events,
    At least one of Canada and Russia will not get the gold medal. I would say that Chan *might* have a better chance at higher Team medal than individual medal, but he's not guaranteed gold in the Team event either. Were Chan to be shaky in the SP, that might give his rivals more confidence, and you know either way, the press is going to be all over it. If V/M, for example, were to score less than D/W in the SD, it could be what impacts their chances at the individual gold. V/M already have a gold, so it's not like getting the Team gold would compensate for losing their second individual gold medal. They *may* not feel the risk is worth it to attempt for three total gold medals, although from what I understand, they are willing to do the SD. V/T have also said they will not do the FS, but they won't face S/S in the Team SP, since S/S said they weren't skating; they could do a QR-intensity SP and still win without giving up much info to their opponents. They only have one Man, so Russia could have different skaters in Ladies or Dance. On the other hand, for Canada, I think both Chan and V/M are only doing the Short, which means the Pairs team in the Team Event will have to compete both Team and individual the first week. I don't know how D/R or M-T/M feel about that and whether they think the trade-off is worth it.

    From everything that Plushenko has said, though, he finds the trade-off fine. On the other hand, his chances of winning the individual gold are much less than winning the Team gold, because there are a handful of formidable rivals among the men vs. pretty much just Canada, plus, he'd be considered a national hero who sacrificed his personal ambition for his country. He'd be able to do press up front and enjoy the rest of the Olympics.

    Aside from testing this out before the Olympics, I think it would have been better to allow optional substitutions for all disciplines, and to allow the finalists to appoint a second skater to the Team Event in a discipline *or* complete their team, since the additional athlete quota is 10 anyway. If they were concerned that the appointed skaters would be too weak, they could make the skater meet the Worlds TES minimums and GP total minimums and require the substitute skater skate the Short. (It would be a nice way to get in a fourth Japanese Man...)
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  9. #149
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    I wasn't aware Chan and V/M had said they're only doing the SD. Is that for certain? I'd be really surprised not to see Russia in it to win it - they've always been big team players. I think it will actually be tougher on some of the current or recent World champions because they have to always be thinking about the impact their team event skate will have on individual events. The strategy is enormously important. Canada has a fair chance, but I think there may be less pressure on the Americans and the Russians - V/T will win individual gold barring disaster on the way to the rink, and the same with D/W for silver or gold. The American men and women are always lurking just off the podium and now so are the Russian women and dance. I expect to see the skaters from both of those countries skate like they have nothing to lose.

  10. #150
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    Other than Chan, V/T, and a few others, the team event IS their only or best chance of an Olympic medal. Say Demney and Coughlin - this is their only chance or Kathlyn Osmond - she has a much better shot in team than individual. So other than a few skaters, team is more important than individual if they are looking to medal.

  11. #151
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    Yes, and? The people for whom this is their only chance of getting a medal are reliant on their teammates with a chance at the individual medal (or at least Top six) to get that for them. Plus, they've had one mindset their entire lives since they saw Tara Lipinski or Sarah Hughes or Oksana Bauil or Evgeny Plushenko at the top of the podium when they were kinds, and, relatively suddenly, their mindset is supposed to change to have a very different goal in mind in an event that's never been tested?

    In the US it's up to the skaters to decide whether they are willing to skate both or one segment. I haven't seen a document for Canada. If Denney/Coughlin fill out the form and say they are willing to skate both segments, then USFS might appoint them to do so, although USFS might assign the Ladies, since their event isn't right after the team event. For the Canadians, it's another story, since if V/M's and Chan's final decision is Short only, two teams with a shot at an individual medal will have to do four programs in a week.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Yes, and? The people for whom this is their only chance of getting a medal are reliant on their teammates with a chance at the individual medal (or at least Top six) to get that for them. Plus, they've had one mindset their entire lives since they saw Tara Lipinski or Sarah Hughes or Oksana Bauil or Evgeny Plushenko at the top of the podium when they were kinds, and, relatively suddenly, their mindset is supposed to change to have a very different goal in mind in an event that's never been tested?

    In the US it's up to the skaters to decide whether they are willing to skate both or one segment. I haven't seen a document for Canada. If Denney/Coughlin fill out the form and say they are willing to skate both segments, then USFS might appoint them to do so, although USFS might assign the Ladies, since their event isn't right after the team event. For the Canadians, it's another story, since if V/M's and Chan's final decision is Short only, two teams with a shot at an individual medal will have to do four programs in a week.
    what I mean is that people are treating this team event like some horrible chore to be avoided at all costs - an Olympic medal will be awarded at the end of it and for many - perhaps a majority - it is their best or only shot. I could see some of the concerns, regarding training, etc, affecting some of the top people but for someone farther down, the potential upside of their only olympics medal should matter more than some disruption in their training regimen for an event they have no chance of medaling in

    I am sure skaters like Denney, etc are realistic- if they have dreams of being on the podium they have to do it in teams.

    Frankly, I do not see why competitors just do not view the team event as a practice for their "real" event a few days later. Perhaps there are some confidence issues, etc going on, but I would think the chance to work out your kinks on Olympic ice before your real event would be a great advantage. Especially if you skate well - that would give you alot of confidence going into your real event.

    Also, comments imply that there is some kind of relationship between team and individual. But you could still fulfill your dream of being on the podium as an individual AND still do it for team. How you perform in team has no bearing on your individual score which will be decided by different judges on a different day with different set of competitors.

    It is not like people need to learn a new skill for team. They simply need to skate their programs they already prepared for individual
    Last edited by Blondie12; 11-03-2013 at 09:57 PM.

  13. #153

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    It's so silly that NBC of all entities has forced the team event to be first. The argument I heard is that they want Ladies to the be the final discipline. But, um, there are Ladies in the Team Event, and why not use the US TV watchers' fascination/history with the Ladies event to segue into the team event where there are Ladies + more?

    If they did that, they could use the results of the individual events as a preliminary round. I think that would make a lot more sense to people.
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  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    It's so silly that NBC of all entities has forced the team event to be first. The argument I heard is that they want Ladies to the be the final discipline. But, um, there are Ladies in the Team Event, and why not use the US TV watchers' fascination/history with the Ladies event to segue into the team event where there are Ladies + more?

    If they did that, they could use the results of the individual events as a preliminary round. I think that would make a lot more sense to people.
    That would be a *fantastic* way of doing it: extending the Ladies event into something bigger, and giving exposure to the other disciplines. Plus, they could have a running commentary about qualification throughout the other events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blondie12 View Post

    Frankly, I do not see why competitors just do not view the team event as a practice for their "real" event a few days later. Perhaps there are some confidence issues, etc going on, but I would think the chance to work out your kinks on Olympic ice before your real event would be a great advantage. Especially if you skate well - that would give you alot of confidence going into your real event.
    In any risk assessment you take probability and consequences into consideration. It's not just these Olympics with which many skaters are concerned: it's setting themselves up for Worlds without some top contenders and/or the top contenders are burned out and distracted and the next Olympic cycle. What they've envisioned is winning an individual medal. If anything, participating in the team event has been an end-of-season goof-off, let off steam junket to Japan, except for the lower-ranked people who get cash and ranking points. The Reeds and Monko/Khaliavin, for example, wouldn't have been guaranteed any GP's this season had they not jumped into the Top 24 SB through WTT.

    They might be thrilled to be on the podium, especially if they are unsure about continuing, however, this event is a complete unknown, and that's why not everyone is so excited. Swimmers and athletes in track are used to competing in a format where they have days on and off, and they have experience with coming down, how to rest, and how and when to concentrate on the next race, especially in the context of an Olympics, living in an Olympic Village, with distractions that would be irrelevant if their event was over-over or yet to come. No one in skating knows how to do this from skating competitions. It would be great if the Federations were working with the skaters by enlisting experts, ex: athletics and swim coaches to give advice and strategies and sports psychologists, but there are few like Russia who have any centralized elite training or programs aside from one or two elite get-togethers.

    Treating it as practice means that the downside of doing less than 100% could be worse skaters with medal chances as well as skaters setting themselves up for the next Olympic cycle, and, in the case of US and Canadian Pairs, establishing who is at the top. Also, even if they don't want to do it, and they say "no" on their forms, if it's close, do you think that the scale won't be tipped to the teams/skaters who agree to be good team players, and that they'll feel pressured to say "yes"?

    It's not my money or my parents' second mortgage that's on the line or a dream I've had since I was six: it's their's, and that's why not all of them are about the prospect, even if they win a team medal. Even if there are potential upsides, the risk of the downside is great enough to be an issue.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

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