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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loves_Shizuka View Post
    ^I was just about to post a similar thing. It seemed so weird to have medal finals in gymnastics, for example, starting at 10am and such.
    Just wait--if people think the schedule this year is bad, what are they going to say in 2018 when the figure skating events begin at 10am in Korea to accommodate a live primetime broadcast in the U.S.? I can almost guarantee that NBC will arrange for skating to take place in the morning just like they did with swimming and gymnastics in 2008.

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theatregirl1122 View Post
    Remembering that only two can be split and that, by splitting, the team might be sacrificing points. Maybe each US man or US pair would place in a similar location, but I think splitting dance would be a mistake for any team. For example, if V&M and D&W skate both the short and the long, they are likely to place first or second in both components. If Weaver & Poje and Chock & Bates skate one segment, they will not achieve the finishes that D&W and V&M would achieve. Chock and Bates, for example, would likely fall behind several couples in the SD. Countries will have to be very strategic about who they sub out in the team event. It really only works if you have two teams likely to finish in the same place relative to the other teams in the event.
    I thought the scores from the SP/SD do not carry over. As long as the country makes it to the top five/six, they go to the final round where everyone has a clean slate. I don't think the US, Russia and Canada have that much to worry wrt going to the next round, even if they use their "B" team in the shorts.

    If they do carry over, then yeah, use your top skaters.

    As a skating fan, if I were to go to the Olympics live (again--aww, I miss Vancouver), I wouldn't mind morning skates. Just based on my Vancouver experience, I had tickets to the practice sessions so woke up REALLY early to go to the arena. So a competition shortly thereafter would've been great! And then I would have the rest of the day to do stuff, like wait in line for the zipline.

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theatregirl1122 View Post
    Remembering that only two can be split and that, by splitting, the team might be sacrificing points. Maybe each US man or US pair would place in a similar location, but I think splitting dance would be a mistake for any team. For example, if V&M and D&W skate both the short and the long, they are likely to place first or second in both components. If Weaver & Poje and Chock & Bates skate one segment, they will not achieve the finishes that D&W and V&M would achieve. Chock and Bates, for example, would likely fall behind several couples in the SD. Countries will have to be very strategic about who they sub out in the team event. It really only works if you have two teams likely to finish in the same place relative to the other teams in the event.

    Great post, I agree.

    And I'm wondering most what strategic strategies will be used? For Canada, I assume they will put forth their very best athletes in dance & men (i.e. V&M and Patrick Chan) in order to achieve the #1 position. Therefore I believe they will only use the *2* split option for Ladies & Pairs, but maybe not. Hmm, I'm thinking they'll go with the split option only for their Pairs because both teams are exceptional and capable of bringing in huge scores (MT/M for the SP & D&R for the FS). Now where it gets interesting is their Ladies. They may decide to go with Kaetlyn Osmond for both the SP & FS since she finished #8 at Worlds in 2013, whereas Amelie Lacoste finished #16 in 2012 & 2011. Therefore it would be wise to go only with the former. Jmho.

    For Russia I too see them putting forth only their best athletes (i.e V&T for Pairs and B&S for Ice Dance) to maintain that #2 position. However, I only seeing them using their *2* split option for Ladies (Adelina & Liza whom finished 9&10 at 2013 Worlds). The big question mark is Evgeni Plushenko? Without him no way will they get the silver, mayhap not even the bronze. The reason why I say this is because the other Russian men have all finished far far down the line (Maxim Kovtun #17 at 2013 Worlds, Sergei Voronov #17 and Artur Gachinski #18 at 2012 Worlds). That does not bode well for the Team Event, therefore imho Russia will only medal if Zhenya is able to compete (crossing my fingers & praying he does). Remember, they are only really dominate in one discipline (i.e. Pairs) without Evgeni. Jmho.

    As for the USA, of course D&W will skate both programs in order to give the USA a shot at the podium. After that, its anybody's game, but I must say I would have Denney&Coughlin skate both the SP & FS because they are the most consistent and have achieved the highest results at Worlds thus far (not counting Coughlin's 6th place with Caitlin Yankowskas in 2011). For Ladies & Men I would use the *2* split option, and then go with the most consistent skater for the FS, leaving the SP to the least consistent skater. Jmho.

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by manhn View Post
    I thought the scores from the SP/SD do not carry over. As long as the country makes it to the top five/six, they go to the final round where everyone has a clean slate. I don't think the US, Russia and Canada have that much to worry wrt going to the next round, even if they use their "B" team in the shorts.

    If they do carry over, then yeah, use your top skaters.

    As a skating fan, if I were to go to the Olympics live (again--aww, I miss Vancouver), I wouldn't mind morning skates. Just based on my Vancouver experience, I had tickets to the practice sessions so woke up REALLY early to go to the arena. So a competition shortly thereafter would've been great! And then I would have the rest of the day to do stuff, like wait in line for the zipline.
    Someone can correct me, but everything I remember reading said the scores do carry over.

  5. #65

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    The Short program scores do carry over: http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=4263 (refer to page 10 - "5. ISU JUDGING SYSTEM – RESULT DETERMINATION")
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  6. #66

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    What happens if a skater competes in the team event, gets injured or exacerbates an existing minor injury, and withdraws from the individual event. Can s/he be replaced by a compatriot in the individual event at the last minute?

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by NadineWhite View Post
    For Russia I too see them putting forth only their best athletes (i.e V&T for Pairs and B&S for Ice Dance) to maintain that #2 position. However, I only seeing them using their *2* split option for Ladies (Adelina & Liza whom finished 9&10 at 2013 Worlds). The big question mark is Evgeni Plushenko? Without him no way will they get the silver, mayhap not even the bronze. The reason why I say this is because the other Russian men have all finished far far down the line (Maxim Kovtun #17 at 2013 Worlds, Sergei Voronov #17 and Artur Gachinski #18 at 2012 Worlds). That does not bode well for the Team Event, therefore imho Russia will only medal if Zhenya is able to compete (crossing my fingers & praying he does). Remember, they are only really dominate in one discipline (i.e. Pairs) without Evgeni. Jmho.
    Don't Russian men only have 1 spot? I don't think swapping out is an option there unless they found some injury loopholes.

  8. #68

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    gkelly, is your hypothetical question the same as this question that was posed in another thread?
    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    I've been trying to find the answer to this question ever since it became apparent that a) Russia only can send one man and b) Plushy's body is held together with racetape and cable ties. So far, I have not been able to find a direct answer to the question of what happens if someone gets injured during the team event.
    My guess is that the Olympic alternate could replace an injured skater or team as long as the withdrawal takes place before the individual event's SP start order draw? I don't know if there is a rule published online regarding this situation at this time.

    ETA this excerpt from a NY Times article dated February 12, 2006: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/12/sp...-olyskate.html
    The U.S. Olympic Committee has asked to replace Kwan with Emily Hughes, the third-place finisher at last month's U.S. championships and younger sister of 2002 Olympic champion, Sarah Hughes.

    "The replacement provisions are injury, illness and exceptional circumstance," said Darryl Seibel, spokesman for the U.S. Olympic Committee. "It's really in the hands of the organizing committee and international federation." An International Olympic Committee spokeswoman, Giselle Davis, said that the IOC had approved Kwan's replacement, but did not specify that it was Hughes.
    Last edited by Sylvia; 09-24-2013 at 09:57 PM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  9. #69

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    Yes, they have only 1 spot, thus my point. If Evgeni gets it, then they have a good shot at the silver, but if not, no. Jmho.

  10. #70

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    Copied & pasted my reply from the other thread to here:



    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    Serious question: would that be allowed? I've been trying to find the answer to this question ever since it became apparent that a) Russia only can send one man and b) Plushy's body is held together with racetape and cable ties. So far, I have not been able to find a direct answer to the question of what happens if someone gets injured during the team event.

    Excellent question, misskarme!

    I too am interested in the response. The first thing that came to mind was the 1992 Olympics in Women's Gymnastics (I recall it like yesterday): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatiana_Gutsu


    Thanks, Sylvia, for providing a good answer.

  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    gkelly, is your hypothetical question the same as this question that was posed in another thread?
    Yes, I was specifically thinking of Plushenko as an example of someone who might go into the team event strategically, knowing that withdrawal from the individual event was likely if he didn't feel physically up to contending for an individual medal.

    (Since he already has three. Other competitors with zero or only one Olympic medal so far, or no expectations of medaling anyway, would more likely want to try if they were physically capable of skating.)

    But that speculation also made me wonder what would happen if someone is legitimately and unexpectedly injured during the team event. Would withdrawal dash only their own dreams (which is the main argument against scheduling the team event first), or also those of their federation?

  12. #72
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    The scores carry over. It's the combined placement points. The Free yields more points even if the relative placements remain the same: for example, last place in the short if 10 teams compete gets 1 point and in the free gets 6 points, while first gets 10 points in both. In Pairs, for example, there could be two teams that don't have pairs, and last place gets 3 points, which could be the difference between JPN making the final and not making the final.

    For the SP, the placements from the five Teams that don't make the final can be spoilers, getting between the results of the teams that do and increasing the point gap. For example, if JPN doesn't make the final, its Man, if he doesn't win, in which case it's moot, could very well get between the Men from RUS and USA or CAN and USA or CAN and RUS. Were P/B not to skate the SD, the Reeds would likely get between FRA and the likely leaders. If the KOR Man qualifies at Nebelhorn and they have a Pairs or Dance team to appoint, Kim could get between Asada and the skaters from the other three countries vying for a spot in the finals. If P/T skate the SP for CHN, they could get between CAN and RUS.

    For USA, CAN, and RUS, only relative placements after the SD/FS matter. For example, V/T have already said they're not doing the FS. At most, in the FS, RUS could lose one placement point if B/L or K/S skate to CAN, especially seeing how P/T are held together with duct tape (if CHN even make it into the finals over two of ITA, FRA, and JPN), and gain one less over USA, if CAN beat them. In Dance, USA could lose three and four to RUS and CAN if FRA and ITA are the other finalists, P/B skate, and D/W don't, or one and two if P/B don't skate or the other two finalist are JPN and CHN. Unless the USA team overachieves in the SP, and unless FRA is too close for comfort for the bronze, there should be no reason to try to force D/W to skate the FD, but were CAN to lose gold by the margin between what W/P earn and what V/M could have, good luck with remaining Canada's sweethearts.

    As far as whether the substitute for a skater injured (or "injured") in the TE can skate the individual event, there's nothing in the TE rules that says it can't, and I can't find anything on the Olympics site or any documentation that addresses this directly. If Kwan was on official practice ice and was allowed to be replaced by Emily Hughes, then the cut-off is not when official practices for that event start. Since the start orders are established by draw within groups, it's possible that the subsitutions can be made until then or before an official meeting before the Short segment for that discipline.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theatregirl1122 View Post
    It really only works if you have two teams likely to finish in the same place relative to the other teams in the event.
    I agree, which is why it will be an interesting balancing act for federations to decide how/whether to trade off individual gold versus team gold. Canada pairs is one of the events where I think they could easily split the events...even though Duhamel & Radford consistently beat Moore-Towers & Moscovitch last season, they were consistently very close to one another and tended to be bunched together at most of their competitions. I don't expect either team to beat Volosozhar & Trankov and think both teams have an equal shot at Pang/Tong and whichever of the other Russian teams skates the free. Much tougher decisions in dance and men where Chan and V/M would be unlikely to finish out of the top 2 while Reynolds and W/P would have a tougher time. On the flip side, Canada might not care as much about resting e.g. Duhamel/Radford for individual events as they do Chan or V/M.

    The US has the same issue as Canada with dance and while pairs and/or men could be at a more equal level, they're also less likely to be concerned about conserving since I don't expect either to be individual medal contenders at this point. Japan probably has the easiest decision to make re whether they should change skaters for the free (assuming they qualify), in that they should definitely do so in both singles events, where they have multiple medal contenders of similar ability. The tougher challenge for Japan will be which two of their three singles skaters should skate and who should do which program. With Russia already splitting pairs, that leaves dance or ladies for their other event to split, and France could probably split their men’s entrants if they were to qualify but that would be about it.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatesindreams View Post
    If the US controls the media coverage, as claimed; why is what we get mostly non-existent?
    Because NBC sucks?
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  15. #75
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    To split or not to split, that is the question.... It'll definitely be interesting to see the strategic thinking that takes place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by allezfred View Post
    Because NBC sucks?
    I'd blame it on Comcast and GE.

  17. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by clairecloutier View Post
    In a way I agree with this. I think it'd be easier for the skaters to focus on the team event after they have their individual events out of the way. But, there are probably arguments either way. In Olympic gymnastics, the team event is before all the individual events, and that seems to work out pretty well.
    If I'm wrong, please correct me, since I'm not a big fan of gymnastics. Does it work out well because historicaly the team event has been more important than individual ones in Olympic gymnastics, or at least almost the same importance between them? Plesumably individual events are more important for skaters at this point..e.g.s/z don't want to participate in the team event.
    Last edited by rosewood; 09-25-2013 at 08:53 AM.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Would withdrawal dash only their own dreams (which is the main argument against scheduling the team event first)
    This. I'll bet a lot of top skaters would gladly join their teams to fight for (yet another) Olympic medal AFTER the individual competition. This way, they could be more relaxed during the team event, instead of being afraid to give their best to a less important event. I just cannot see anyone from the top skaters skating their best in the team event, risking an injury and a worse performance in the individual one.

    By the way, do the skaters even have anything to say about whether they want to participate in the team event or are they just gonna be assigned (aka forced) to do that by their federations?

  19. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by rosewood View Post
    If I'm wrong, please correct me, since I'm not a big fan of gymnastics. Does it work out well because historicaly the team event has been more important than individual ones in Olympic gymnastics, or at least almost the same importance between them? Plesumably individual events are more important for skaters at this point..e.g.s/z don't want to participate in the team event.
    Until 1996, both phases of the team event were the qualification rounds for the individual event. Since the elimination of compulsories, their is one prelim round, where gymnasts compete as teams. That is the qualifier for the team final and all the individual finals (AA and each event).

    For so long, though, the qualifier for the individual events was 2 rounds of team competition. So perhaps for that reason, no one views the team final, which is the 2nd round of team competition as 'getting in the way' of individual finals.

    Also, the team event is extremely prestigious, perhaps more so than the individual events to coaches and federations. Even in the US, they would rather have a team gold than an individual gold, imo. More athletes to make famous!
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  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by rosewood View Post
    If I'm wrong, please correct me, since I'm not a big fan of gymnastics. Does it work out well because historicaly the team event has been more important than individual ones in Olympic gymnastics, or at least almost the same importance between them? Plesumably individual events are more important for skaters at this point..e.g.s/z don't want to participate in the team event.
    As not so much of a fan anymore, but obessive in the 80s and 90s, I'd say Individual AA is the most prestigious medal. Then the team medal is kind of equal with event medals, in my opinion.

    However, the problem with team medals is it is easy to be a forgotten name. A year after the 96 Olympics, how many people could name ALL of the Magnificent Seven? How many people can now? But the names that do stick around didn't necessarily get individual medals either.

    However, the qualifying nature of the team event makes it very important to gymnasts.

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