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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by rosewood View Post
    If I'm wrong, please correct me, since I'm not a big fan of gymnastics. Does it work out well because historicaly the team event has been more important than individual ones in Olympic gymnastics, or at least almost the same importance between them? Plesumably individual events are more important for skaters at this point..e.g.s/z don't want to participate in the team event.
    I think the fact that the team event in gymnastics serves as a qualifier for the individual events makes it very different in nature to the team event in skating. It's not some throw-away event and has a direct effect on the individual events (hence everyone tries to give their best). In London, Jordan Wieber lost the chance to compete in the All-Around despite being the reigning World Champion in that event, because she didn't do as well as Aly and Gabby in the team events that served as qualifiers. IMO the team event in gymnastics is more important and "legit" as the Olympic spots are filled by making it onto the Team, rather than the other way around as in skating, where individuals have to qualify on their own in the individual events (making it inherently a higher priority) in order to be considered for the team event.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rosewood View Post
    I wish the team event was on the end of the schedule so that the skaters could do their best in their individual events in Sochi.
    Then you would get a half-arsed team event with the skaters not even trying and half of them pulling out because of 'injury.'

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by mia joy View Post
    By the way, do the skaters even have anything to say about whether they want to participate in the team event or are they just gonna be assigned (aka forced) to do that by their federations?
    It's up to the Federation. In the Olympic qualification document that USFS submitted to and approved by the USOC and posted to the USFS site in .pdf format

    https://www.google.com/url?q=http://...D3MYjNsq0A8FmQ

    there are over four pages outlining the US Team Event selection process (document pages 7 [bottom)-11, Adobe pagination may differ). If I've understood this correctly, the procedure is:

    1. 21 days before the selection meeting for the Olympic team -- targeted to within 24 hours after the discipline finishes -- every athlete, with the head coach's approval, has to declare on an official form whether they will participate in the Team Event -- if they don't complete the form, they can't be considered for the US Olympic Team for any event -- and, if so, which segments. In addition, if a skater/team chooses not to compete in a segment, but agrees on the form to possibly reconsider, if the US cannot field a team in all four disciplines, they can be nominated for the Team Event.

    2. The skaters/teams nominated for the individual events are ranked, which the International Committee has to approve, and the ranking determines who has first choice of acceptance.

    3. The strategy for the team selection is officially "based on maximizing the potential for peak performances and placements in the Team Event as well as the athlete's/team's individual event."

    4. The disciplines are ranked in the order of "which disciplines have the best opportunity to medal and/or provide the strongest field in the individual events and the ranking order of the athletes/teams will be used to determine which athletes will have priority in competing in the Team Event."

    5. If USA makes the final, the skater/team in the highest-ranked discipline gets to decide whether to compete in the FD/FS or pass. If there's a substitute available and willing, then the second-ranked skater/team gets to sub, and if the second-ranked skater/team declines, where there are three skaters, the third-ranked team is given the option. They then go down the disciplines, and if there are two substitutions and discipline(s) left, the FD/FS defaults to the SD/SP skater(s)/team(s) who are willing.

    6. If no skater/team is willing to compete in his or her event at all or one of the two segments, the approved USFS document partly contradicts the ISU document, in that it says that it either will send three disciplines or not compete in the Team Event. In fact, USFS doesn't have the choice to send three disciplines, because the ISU document says that a competing team that qualifies at least one skater in the discipline must compete in the discipline, or the skater(s) who don't compete in the Team Event in their discipline can't compete in the individual discipline.

    7. Three days before Opening Ceremonies, USFS will adjust the team, if needed due to illness, injury, or refusal to participate, by ranking order if they can, or if they have to, the Olympic Team Managers, the Team Leader, and the coaches will try to figure it out. They won't announce the FD/FS participants ahead of time, in case they have to mix it up.

    While all teams have to submit the final list participants by 27 January 13, there's no requirement to replace anyone who is ill or injured. There's nothing in the ISU Team Event document describing until when the ISU can ask another team to participate in the first segment. For example, if the US Team had to withdraw three days before the Opening Ceremonies, it isn't clear if there would be a substitute.

    The ISU document also says nothing specific about a team having to pull out after the SP/SD: i.e., whether the remaining members would be allowed to skate in the individual events, and if the team would be allowed to participate in three instead of four disciplines or if the 6th ranked-team would replace the team that has to pull out.

    Since the USFS can nominate skaters who agree to "reconsider," they could, technically, have an entire team comprised of skaters/teams where, at best, they said they'd reconsider. They could end up with less than four disciplines if the one team that agreed to do a given segment is ill or injured, and the rest said no or agreed to reconsider and then declined.

    How will the ISU decide who cannot skate in the individual events, because a team could no longer field the required number of disciplines (the ones in which they earned at least one spot in the individual events, which is always at least two)? Will they require illness and injury to be validated? Will a skater who pulls out of the Team Event for illness or injury be allowed to skate in the individual event? (A fever may subside and a skater can recover from food poisoning fairly quickly.)

    Although willingness to skate the Team Event is not a USFS criteria for individual event selection, if the preferences are known before individual selection -- the forms have to be in weeks before -- will USFS really risk the Team Event if, for example, it's close between Teams #3 and #4, and only #4 is willing to dance the FD?
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 09-25-2013 at 10:59 PM.
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    They shouldn't allow skaters to be substituted, if they skate the sp they should have to skate the fs.

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    Sorry to be late to say thank you very much to everyone who explained about the team event in the Olympic gymnastics. So the team event in Olympic gymnastics is very different in nature from that in skating because their team event serves as a qualifier for the individual events, too. Then I still hope the team event in skating would be on the end of the schedule like in Judo. Hopefully the team event will not annoy any skater awfully, who will compete at both of them. At next Olympics I hope ISU will change the schedule. Anyways I believe ISU should have done the team event on the beginning of the World Championships 2013 so that skaters could experience it at least once.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Then you would get a half-arsed team event with the skaters not even trying and half of them pulling out because of 'injury.'
    Possively. While if any skater cannot skate in their individual events for the reason of real injuries they've got in their team event, it might be worse.
    Last edited by rosewood; 09-27-2013 at 12:56 PM.
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    I think substitutions are fine for a first time out with this event. I actually think allowing more than 2 events to do substitutions would be fine. Nations with greater depth can be rewarded accordingly and thus, the result become a truer reflection of the "best" teams. JMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rosewood View Post
    Sorry to be late to say thank you very much to everyone who explained about the team event in the Olympic gymnastics. So the team event in Olympic gymnastics is very different in nature from that in skating because their team event serves as a qualifier for the individual events, too. Then I still hope the team event in skating would be on the end of the schedule like in Judo. Hopefully the team event will not annoy any skater awfully, who will compete at both of them. At next Olympics I hope ISU will change the schedule. Anyways I believe ISU should have done the team event on the beginning of the World Championships 2013 so that skaters could experience it at least once.


    Possively. While if any skater cannot skate in their individual events for the reason of real injuries they've got in their team event, it might be worse.
    Just to correct, team event does not act as a qualifier in the Artistic Gymnastics, there is a separate qualification event at the beginning of the gymnastics program for this, where 12 teams and individual athletes can try to qualify for the finals. Top 8 teams, 24 all rounders, and 8 best athletes (2 athletes per country) in each apparatus (vault, floor, etc) qualifies to the finals. The team finals, all round finals and events finals are held separately.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    They shouldn't allow skaters to be substituted, if they skate the sp they should have to skate the fs.
    I like the idea of substitutions being allowed because it allows more skaters to medal (if they are good enough). If your country is so deep that you have multiple top skaters, you should get to use them. They would need to be equally good though, or the substitution would hurt the team; so very few countries could realistically do this.

  9. #89
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    The separate qualifier for gymnastics allows athletes whose country doesn't make the final cut for the team event or doesn't field a team to attempt to qualify for the individual events (AA and apparatus).
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

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    I count 12 countries that have qualified skaters/teams in at least three events and would be eligible to compete if all of their skaters who have citizenship issues resolve them in time, their Feds use up all of their slots, their NOC's send them, and they are in the Top 10 of total points:

    Australia: L(N), M(N), D(N)
    Canada: L, M, P, D
    China: L, M, P, D(N)
    Estonia: L, M, P(N)
    France: L, M, P, D
    Germany: L, M, P, D
    Great Britain: L, P(N), D
    Italy: L, M(N), P, D
    Japan: L, M, D(N)
    Russia: L, M, P, D
    Ukraine: L, M(N), P(N), D
    USA: L, M, P, D

    The countries with three spots can appoint one skater/team in the unqualified discipline, fi they have age-, citizenship-eligile skaters to appoint.

    (N)=spot earned at Nebelhorn

    The odd thing about Olympic qualification is that if there are any WS points earned in disciplines where the country didn't qualify, theycount towards determining which ten teams can skate.

    These countries can change if spots are given back and other teams compete.

    Any corrections are appreciated.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

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    Wait, does this mean #australiafortheteamevent is still a possibility?

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    I count 12 countries that have qualified skaters/teams in at least three events and would be eligible to compete if all of their skaters who have citizenship issues resolve them in time, their Feds use up all of their slots, their NOC's send them, and they are in the Top 10 of total points:

    Australia: L(N), M(N), D(N)
    Canada: L, M, P, D
    China: L, M, P, D(N)
    Estonia: L, M, P(N)
    France: L, M, P, D
    Germany: L, M, P, D
    Great Britain: L, P(N), D
    Italy: L, M(N), P, D
    Japan: L, M, D(N)
    Russia: L, M, P, D
    Ukraine: L, M(N), P(N), D
    USA: L, M, P, D

    The countries with three spots can appoint one skater/team in the unqualified discipline, fi they have age-, citizenship-eligile skaters to appoint.

    (N)=spot earned at Nebelhorn

    The odd thing about Olympic qualification is that if there are any WS points earned in disciplines where the country didn't qualify, theycount towards determining which ten teams can skate.

    These countries can change if spots are given back and other teams compete.

    Any corrections are appreciated.
    Thank you for the analysis. I gather from the above that because only countries with 3 spots can "appoint" an unqualified skater/pair/dance couple, the only real potential beneficiary would be:

    - australia - but then Oz doesn't have a pair
    - estonia - stork and rand? could potentially go?
    - britain - a guy ... but if I was NISA, I wouldn't be tempted to send any ...
    - japan - takahashi & rihara

    so in the end not many can benefit from the "unqualified skaters" rule ...?

    any clarification most appreciated.

  13. #93

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    I still say countries that have qualified in two disciplines and could field an entrant in a 3rd discipline (age eligible citizen, Sochi minimums met) are eligible for the team competition.

    Countries competing in the team event in Sochi need only compete in three disciplines, not four.

    Here is the relevant text from the qualification procedures:

    Each Team must participate in at least 3 disciplines (Ladies/Men/Pair Skating/Ice Dance) of the Figure Skating Team Event. NOCs/ISU Members who according to the procedure as per paragraph 2 above would have qualified for the Figure Skating Team Event but who are unable or unwilling to compose a Team with Skaters/Couples competing in at least 3 disciplines will not be allowed to compete in the Figure Skating Team Event. In order to compose a Team the NOCs, if necessary and applicable, can make one entry (for one discipline) according to the “Additional Athletes Quota” as outlined in detail in paragraph 3.2.1 below.
    If my interpretation is correct, Spain, Czech Republic, Sweden and Israel are in the running as they have qualified in two disciplines, provided they can field an entrant in a 3rd discipline. The entrant has to be age eligible, meet citizenship requirements and exceed the minimum qualifying score.

    I think this additional athlete provision is why there is a minimum score for Sochi, lol.

    I see the lovely lists on skaters that have met Sochi minimums, but Sonia Lafuente isn't on there. Didn't she meet it last year?
    Last edited by Coco; 09-29-2013 at 11:40 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvster View Post

    - australia - but then Oz doesn't have a pair
    Australia has one senior pair at the moment - Paris Stephens and Matthew Dodds. Unless his brother Jordan with Eliza Smyth has moved up to Senior.

    I thought Australia being able to compete in the team event was a joke but sounds like it is a real possibility.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    I've been corrected multiple times when I've posted that teams with two can appoint a third to make a minimum team. In this case I changed to the alternate interpretation, ie, a team must start with three, and can add a fourth. That may not be right.

    I think it's ridiculous for the WS points totals that detemine eligibilty to include disciplines where the country does not have a qualified skater or at least can't appoint one.

    I think you're right about the minimum scores. The rationale for them, ie, to limit the fields, does not apply to the Olympics. It's also possible that they created the minimums there to ensure that a Kim, for example, doesn't qualify a bunch of spots for skaters who are very weak or, to use a past example a Sebestyen from qualifying a spot for Hungary and then retiring and HUN choising Chiappa, but the bar is so low with the score, and skaters can keep trying until almost the end of January to make the score.

    I don't know how they are keeping out with scores that low.
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 09-30-2013 at 10:45 AM.
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  16. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    Australia has one senior pair at the moment - Paris Stephens and Matthew Dodds. Unless his brother Jordan with Eliza Smyth has moved up to Senior.

    I thought Australia being able to compete in the team event was a joke but sounds like it is a real possibility.
    It would be great!
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    It is not a joke, Aussie Willy. There was no 'Nebelhorn team trophy' but I was thinking ahead to Sochi. Of course, it is possible. And what a lovely tribute it would be for the Carrs (and Danielle, who lost leg in the Sydney tragedy) if a points-eligible pair appears in Sochi, if only at the Team Event.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frau Muller View Post
    It is not a joke, Aussie Willy. There was no 'Nebelhorn team trophy' And what a lovely tribute it would be for the Carrs (and Danielle, who lost leg in the Sydney tragedy) if a points-eligible pair appears in Sochi, if only at the Team Event.
    I did not realize that Danielle had a leg amputated in the Australian tragedy.
    I knew that Liz Cain underwent an amputation but I was not aware that there were 2.

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    It was Liz Cain who lost her leg. Danielle wasn't on the boat.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    Thanks for the clarification Aussie Willy.
    I thought that was the case.

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