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  1. #21
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    I don't think Kwan and Lipinski is really that great of an example.

    In 1996-1997, Kwan beat Tara Lipinski in Trophee Lalique. Then Kwan had her Nationals mishap where Lipinski beat her domestically. Then at the CSF, Lipinski beat Kwan again taking advantage of Kwan's sub-par skate. At Worlds, Lipinski skated a great SP and won that portion while Kwan had a mandatory deduction on her Lutz combo. In the LP, the international judges marked Kwan first by a 6-3 split.

    In 1997-1998, Lipinski lost to Kwan unanimously in the SP and LP at Skate America (although it must be said that Lipinski fell in the LP). International judges preferred Kwan that time. Then the International judges liked Lipinski again in the GPF. At Nationals, Lipinski fell in the SP, while Kwan had an out-of-this world SP and LP to beat Tara. At the Olympics, Kwan won the SP 8-1 while Lipinski won the LP 6-3.

    I don't think there was really any difference in the way domestic judges and international judges scored Kwan and Lipinski. Now, if you're saying who got the most positive press leading to the Olympics, that's different. However, both skaters were heavily promoted when they were still developing as juniors by the USFSA.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  2. #22

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    No matter how mentally tough Rachael was the international judges preferred Mirai especially if they both skated well. Rachael just was to slow and lacking skating skills and was never going to make a World podium while the judges were ready to put Mirai on the podium at Worlds in 2010 if she hadn't bombed her LP.

  3. #23

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    from memory, in 1997 Moniotte/Lavanchy came back from injury, were defeated nationally by Anissina/Peizerat, the rivalry was very strong during Grand Prix, but Moniotte/Lavanchy finally passed ahead of Anissina/Peizeart at Euros.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatak View Post
    from memory, in 1997 Moniotte/Lavanchy came back from injury, were defeated nationally by Anissina/Peizerat, the rivalry was very strong during Grand Prix, but Moniotte/Lavanchy finally passed ahead of Anissina/Peizeart at Euros.
    That might have been due to the Free Dance rather than the preference of the skaters. A/P's oriental FD wasn't exactly a judges favorite... And I remember in the back of my head to have heard/read that Moniotte/Lavanchy were "dumped" by the federation so A/P could have the support.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moka-Ananas View Post
    Yagudin and Plushenko come to mind. Whereas Yagudin beat Plushenko very often on the international stage he never managed to beat him for Russian National title.
    That was the first example I thought of, as soon as I read the title of this thread.

  6. #26
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    Lol the Russians know whom is the best! Evgeni always managed to skate his best at home, in his country, at Nationals (ala Michelle Kwan). In fact he skated "Nijinsky" the best he's ever had at Russian Nationals:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEJXkfMYTX4


    ps: Evgeni is only 1 of 10 men throughout figure skating history to win Nationals 10 times. He shares this honor with the greats: Carlo Fassi (Italy), Nobuo Sato (Japan), Bo Mathander (Sweden), Hans Lindh (Sweden), Alain Giletti (France), Laszlo Vajda (Hungary), Marcus Nikkanen (Finland), Gregor Urbas (Slovenia), Martin Stixrud (Norway). And in December of 2012, at the age of 30, he became the 10th man to do so.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I don't think Kwan and Lipinski is really that great of an example.

    In 1996-1997, Kwan beat Tara Lipinski in Trophee Lalique. Then Kwan had her Nationals mishap where Lipinski beat her domestically. Then at the CSF, Lipinski beat Kwan again taking advantage of Kwan's sub-par skate. At Worlds, Lipinski skated a great SP and won that portion while Kwan had a mandatory deduction on her Lutz combo. In the LP, the international judges marked Kwan first by a 6-3 split.

    In 1997-1998, Lipinski lost to Kwan unanimously in the SP and LP at Skate America (although it must be said that Lipinski fell in the LP). International judges preferred Kwan that time. Then the International judges liked Lipinski again in the GPF. At Nationals, Lipinski fell in the SP, while Kwan had an out-of-this world SP and LP to beat Tara. At the Olympics, Kwan won the SP 8-1 while Lipinski won the LP 6-3.

    I don't think there was really any difference in the way domestic judges and international judges scored Kwan and Lipinski. Now, if you're saying who got the most positive press leading to the Olympics, that's different. However, both skaters were heavily promoted when they were still developing as juniors by the USFSA.
    I dont think it is either. Tara won events over Michelle due to her consistency. The judges never really preferred her. It was absolutely nothing like the Michelle and Irina rivalry where it seemed Irina would always win if they skated similar programs for awhile. Tara had to skate lights out with much harder technical content and Michelle to mess up some things seemingly for her to have any chance. That was true both in and out of the U.S.

    The one exception to this is the Olympics. However when comparing Olympics to U.S Nationals that year there was a HUGE difference to how both Tara and Michelle skated in their LPs from one event to another, despite that both were basically "clean".

  8. #28
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    Plus, didn't Tarasova tell Frank he should have politicked more in Nagano since the Russian (and Euro judges in general) didn't care who won between Kwan and Lipinski? Who knows what would have happened if Frank played the game like Callaghan and gave a few judges a bottle of vodka.

    As for Harding vs Yamaguchi, I find it interesting some think Harding was viewed favorably internationally since international judges didn't seem to care for Elaine Zayak who had a similar style. I don't agree Harding would have won for sure had she hit her jumps at 91 Worlds. It would have been close but Yamaguchi had the better program and would have deserved to win.

  9. #29
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    I wouldnt say international judges didnt care for Zayak. At the 81 Worlds she fell on her death drop in the short and was still placed above many clean performances including Kira Ivanova and Kristofics Binder. It was her gift of being placed higher than she should have in the short that allowed her to narrowly pass Binder for silver after a well deserved 2nd place in the long program. At the 82 Worlds she went from 7th to 1st. In 84 she was yesterdays news to international judges, but that had more to do with that the USFSA was not backing her anymore at that point.

    Comparing Harding to Zayak, well Hardings jumps were more explosive and huge. Zayak had great rotational abilities but her jumps were not as big or explosive as people like Witt, Biellmann, young Chin, Ivanova, and didnt really stand out beyond the sheer numbers and the difficult combinations for the time. Hardings triple axel was more key to setting her apart than anything Zayak had, especialy once the Zayak rule was put into place. Zayak had a triple loop, but Witt and Chin both had a triple flip (even if rarely delivered cleanly). Harding also had much stronger basic skating and was alot faster than Elaine was. Ultimately though Zayak achieved a World gold, silver, and bronze, and Harding only a World silver, so I wouldnt say international judges even liked Harding more than Zayak, even though they liked her more than National judges typically did. Although some of that (the lack of medals) is Tonyas own fault, and some of that the USFSAs fault for holding Harding back from 86-89. Atleast young Elaine was heavily pushed and backed by the USFSA in her early years, even being sent to the 1980 Worlds or one of the Olympic reps who had beaten Zayak at Nationals, something that was never true of Tonya.

    I do agree with LNT75 about the 91 Worlds. First off Kristi singled her triple salchow, a glaring miscue, so a clean Tonya with a clean triple axel would have had to win. Any other result would have created a huge scandal in that case, regardless of Kristi's better program/package. At Nationals Kristi fell on her triple salchow, and Tonya clean with the triple axel won easily, and it has already been noted international judges approve of Tonya vs Kristi more than National judges. Even had the double salchow been her only mistake and she done the triple toe-triple toe as planned (or even a triple toe-double toe) she would have won though. She had similar technical marks to Kristi and still high artistic scores even with the glaring misses, and the planned triple toe combination which was turned into one big ugly single toe was the key mistake which made the difference. The double salchow would have been meaningless since Kristi missed hers worse than that.
    Last edited by judgejudy27; 09-21-2013 at 07:51 PM.

  10. #30

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    What was the skater order in the LP at 1991 Worlds?

  11. #31

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    Chan won his first National title over Buttle in 2008 fair and square ( nothing to do with preference) and went on to place 8th at 2008 Worlds which Buttle won.
    Apart from Russia France and Japan..I think there is usually justification for the National placements and not just random preference. ( Yagudin Vs Plushenko eg..Asada Vs Suzuki)

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    What was the skater order in the LP at 1991 Worlds?
    Bonaly and Kiellmann (forget which skated 1st and which 2nd), Harding, Ito, Kerrigan, Yamaguchi

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by NadineWhite View Post
    Great examples, and nice memories, thanks everyone!

    But DUH, how about the most obvious one ~ Lipinski vs. Kwan, especially at the 1998 Olympics.

    That said, the first one that came to mind when I saw the title of this thread was my fav, Rachael Flatt, whom imho was robbed of at least two places at the 2010 Olympics, where she skated her best and she skated her heart out per usual. Of course she was never the same after that once she got tendonitis and stress fracture in her foot, but what she managed to accomplish throughout her entire career thus far while dealing with bulging discs in her back is remarkable!

    To see her skate live is something else; she made me tear up both times I saw her at Skate America in 2010 & 2012. She really did outskate everyone in 2010; the SO she got was well-deserved, but alas I honestly think the real reason why the international judges do not look her is because she didn't have the body of a ballerina (the Russian men's 1994 Olympic Champion even called her fat) and that she was consistent, even though her jumps were not as big as her European counterparts, though fully rotated. Lol I think that irritated them. And of course her bulging discs in her back prevented her from doing those gumby spins, but what she had she worked well with. And let us not forget she had that once-in-a-lifetime ability only the truly greats have - mental toughness. Jmho.
    I have never thought Rachel Flatt was robbed of anything.

    She was an ordinary skater who should be thankful that the US ladies were in a slump. Any other era, she would be like 10th at Nationals.

    And honestly, she should not be mentioned in the same category as the "truly greats". She was a consistent skater who had no pressure on her shoulders and placed top 5 at worlds one time. When speaking of "truly greats"...this is very "meh".

    I am not a hater at all-I loved her performance at 2013 nats- I in no way thought she deserved to be on the podium but I enjoyed her performance the most.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Bonaly and Kiellmann (forget which skated 1st and which 2nd), Harding, Ito, Kerrigan, Yamaguchi
    So, they were saving room for Ito, Kerrigan, and Yamaguchi in the LP at 1991 Worlds after Harding skated, and probably legitimately so. Harding probably lost 1991 Worlds due to the scoring system. It was not like at 1989 Nationals, where the judge left almost no room for Harding after Yamaguchi skated.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    So, they were saving room for Ito, Kerrigan, and Yamaguchi in the LP at 1991 Worlds after Harding skated, and probably legitimately so. Harding probably lost 1991 Worlds due to the scoring system. It was not like at 1989 Nationals, where the judge left almost no room for Harding after Yamaguchi skated.
    True, but I think they score the people to come later accordingly. Had Harding skated better, even if her marks werent much different, Yamaguchi's with a singled salchow would have been.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawnie View Post
    Plus, didn't Tarasova tell Frank he should have politicked more in Nagano since the Russian (and Euro judges in general) didn't care who won between Kwan and Lipinski? Who knows what would have happened if Frank played the game like Callaghan and gave a few judges a bottle of vodka.

    As for Harding vs Yamaguchi, I find it interesting some think Harding was viewed favorably internationally since international judges didn't seem to care for Elaine Zayak who had a similar style. I don't agree Harding would have won for sure had she hit her jumps at 91 Worlds. It would have been close but Yamaguchi had the better program and would have deserved to win.
    Harding had some bad music cuts no doubt, but her scores for Artistry really weren't bad at the 91 worlds. As Judy said they actually were pretty high. Remember too Yamaguchi didn't have her 3/3 yet, had been handily defeated by Harding at nationals, and while her program was good it certainly wasn't any artistic masterpeice. Harding needed another clean triple (even though she landed the 3A) for the judges to reasonably place her over Yamaguchi with only 1 missed salchow. As is often the case in Hardings career what could have been.

  17. #37
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    I was going to say Johnny and Evan, but then I reminded myself Evan has actually had it pretty easy beating Johnny internationally from 2005 Worlds onwards. In fact Johnny was more competitive with Evan at Nationals (2005, 2006, 2008) than he ever was internationally by that point.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Michelle at the 2005 Nationals was nothing extraordinary, especialy in the LP. Not even much different from Worlds. Sasha made mistakes there too but it was obvious by the scoring a clean Kwan would have beaten a clean Cohen there, but it was also obvious by the scoring at Worlds the same year the reverse was definitely true (albeit under a different system).

    Millot placed higher in international competitions than Philippe until fall 1992.
    What are you talking about ? Michelle fell at Worlds, not at the Nationals. The only thing I could agree with you on Michelle vs Sasha is 2005 Worlds SP. Michelle was perfect, Sasha was not, and Sasha came ahead of Michelle in the SP.

    About Philippe Candeloro and Eric Millot, I was more thinking about 1993 French Nationals, Millot won (but I think he didn't deserve it), but in fact, at Euros and Worlds, Candeloro was ahead of Millot.
    Probably not a good example, I agree.

  19. #39
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    Back in the 6.0 days, I think this type of thing was more evident. These days, it seems tougher to say there is a distinct pattern as the potential for placement changes on very minor point differentials is that much more possible.

    Amongst the ladies today, I did find it interesting how well received Christina Gao was received internationally. And perhaps it is not totally reflective of how she is viewed by domestic judges, but her placement at nationals does not commensurately reflect the impressiveness of her results internationally. Last season especially.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    What are you talking about ? Michelle fell at Worlds, not at the Nationals.
    Nationals she landed only 5 triples and was flat. Worlds she landed 5 triples, but slightly two footed the 5th and atleast was more spirited before the fall. Not a big difference IMO. Her Worlds LP scored about 114, I would guess her Nationals LP about 115 had she done it at Worlds.

    Either way with 4 perfect 6.0s for a completely ordinary performance at Nationals, which as a Kwan fan I was almost insulted by as it almost degraded many of her past worthy 6.0s at Nationals, it is clear there was a MUCH stronger preference to her at Nationals than at Worlds that year regardless how she would have skated. At Nationals Kwan would have had to be subpar (which she was somewhat) and Cohen amazing for Cohen to have possibly won. At Worlds that same year by the scores it is clear the exact reverse was true. Hence in line with this thread.

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