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  1. #41

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    What I've never understood about this family (and others like it) is the complete lack of trust in their adult children and their own beliefs. They have spent 20 years raising their daughter to believe about purity, how some things are best saved for marriage, and other super conservative Christian beliefs. However, when the time comes, they do not trust their adult children to be strong enough about their beliefs to be able to text, talk or even hug her own "boyfriend". It's baffling to me.

  2. #42

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    This week Michelle Duggar was all upset that Josh and his family were moving to Washington DC and would no longer be an active part of "the family". I wondered if perhaps Michelle was upset at losing free babysitting as much as she was anxious because she and JimBob could no longer control Josh and Anna.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatesindreams View Post
    The more I discover about the Duggars; their beliefs and lifestyle, the less impressed I am.
    The person who "profits" from their "public" persona is Jim Bob; no one else.
    I think it's so odd that people think Jim Bob is the one who benefits. To me, this is alllllllll about Michelle, and she is the one who gets the most out of it. Jim Bob may think he is the head of the household, but to me, it seems obvious that Michelle runs everything, including him.

    Quote Originally Posted by oleada View Post
    What I've never understood about this family (and others like it) is the complete lack of trust in their adult children and their own beliefs. They have spent 20 years raising their daughter to believe about purity, how some things are best saved for marriage, and other super conservative Christian beliefs. However, when the time comes, they do not trust their adult children to be strong enough about their beliefs to be able to text, talk or even hug her own "boyfriend". It's baffling to me.
    Because they all know how strong the temptation to sin is, and so they believe that the best way to resist temptation is not to allow it any space to develop. They don't consider this to be true of just their own children, either. Most people who believe in this way also have fairly strict social rules about how adults behave as well. For example, it is highly unlikely that Jim Bob would ever, say, meet a woman for a business lunch that was just the two of them. Or say that a married female neighbor was in the hospital and Michelle decided to share a casserole for the family. She would either a) be sure she didn't stay more than a couple of minutes when she dropped it off, b) take someone else with her, or c) send two of the girls to deliver it. She would not, however, spend a lot of time alone with the woman's husband, nor would she allow her daughters to do so.

    It's not just about avoiding temptation; it's also about avoiding the possible appearance of sin. You never want to give anyone, especially unbelievers, cause to think that you are maybe sneaking around doing something you shouldn't, even if you aren't actually doing anything wrong. That's part of the whole "never left alone" thing; to their way of thinking, that makes it much easier to remember that God is always watching (and so is someone else) and that your behavior is always being judged.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  4. #44

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    Does Michelle control any money received from TLC; or from other sources, as a result of their success?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    I think it's so odd that people think Jim Bob is the one who benefits. To me, this is alllllllll about Michelle, and she is the one who gets the most out of it.
    IIRC in their book both Jim Bob and Michelle said that they were both raised in religious households. But Michelle was the one who decided first that God was telling her and Jim Bob to have as many children as God wanted them to. Which I think both of them also said was a big surprise to Michelle's parents and siblings, because while they were religious, their beliefs were nowhere near that strong.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  6. #46
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    They've also said that they decided to have as many children "as god intends" after coming to the conclusion that birth control caused Michelle to miscarriage.

    I've always felt sad for Michelle's daughters. Many times she has talked about, with joy, all the things she did as a teenager, she was a cheerleader, actually got to date, did things with her friends, yet won't allow her daughters to do any of that.

    I'm not sure if anyone knows this, but Michelle has a sister who is a lesbian. And according to Josh, she doesn't believe she should have the right to get married.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatesindreams View Post
    Does Michelle control any money received from TLC; or from other sources, as a result of their success?
    If Michelle runs Jim Bob, Michelle controls everything, no matter whose name the money is in.

    I have no idea how they bank, but I would assume they have joint accounts. Why wouldn't they?

    I don't think the money is the part Michelle is interested in, or at least isn't the main part. I could be totally wrong, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitneyskates View Post
    I'm not sure if anyone knows this, but Michelle has a sister who is a lesbian. And according to Josh, she doesn't believe she should have the right to get married.
    I don't need Josh's word for it to know that's true.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  8. #48

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    Nooooo boundaries in that family. And when the whole family is involved in the courtship, I think the courted one can feel pressure to continue the relationship if all their younger siblings are so enamored of their boyfriend. It's a done deal, as others have said, so I hope they love each other.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    Nooooo boundaries in that family. And when the whole family is involved in the courtship, I think the courted one can feel pressure to continue the relationship if all their younger siblings are so enamored of their boyfriend. It's a done deal, as others have said, so I hope they love each other.
    I would be shocked if the love each other at this point. They might be infatuated, but love does take a bit of time and togetherness. That isn't to say that they won't grow to love each other. The one positive thing about some arranged marriages is that the bride and groom do tend to share the same family backgrounds and the same basic values. Assuming the parents have the right motivations (ie, they are not marrying off a child for money or status but are really looking for a compatible partner) it could turn out just fine. It is not what I would do or want for my girls, but it may be what these two expect.
    A good rant is cathartic. Ranting is what keeps me sane. They always come from a different place. Take the prime minister, for example. Sometimes when I rant about him, I am angry; other times, I am just severely annoyed - it's an important distinction. - Rick Mercer

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitneyskates View Post
    They've also said that they decided to have as many children "as god intends" after coming to the conclusion that birth control caused Michelle to miscarriage.
    And yet, they clearly don't let God have control since they do everything in their power to have as many children as possible. They've mentioned many times about "trying for #20". So you can -try- to have kids, but you can't -try- to not have them (simply by not having sex...I'm not going to try to get them to use birth control)? How is that leaving it up to God? That's taking control yourself.

    Most Quiverful families who "leave it up to God" end up with 8-10. It takes a lot of work in the bedroom to have 19 kids, even if you are really fertile.

  11. #51
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    On the subject of no boundaries; One of the creepiest things I remember this family used to do is keep Michelle's ovulation schedule on the fridge, and the kids knew that during that time, Jim Bob and Michelle always had a lot of "alone time".

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by mag View Post
    The one positive thing about some arranged marriages is that the bride and groom do tend to share the same family backgrounds and the same basic values.
    Eh, I find that Americans who speak so positively of other cultures' forced marriages would poop a brick if they lost their own rights to choose their spouses. The hard truth is that a lot of people have dysfunctional parents who would project their own dysfunctional values if they got to choose one's spouse, and then the kids are hosed for life. If your father didn't find anything wrong with smacking you and your mother around, he won't have a problem with the fact that the husband he's chosen for you is already known for giving women the beatdown.

    The modern American system sure isn't perfect, as our divorce rate can attest, but at least the children of dysfunctional parents have the opportunity of leaving behind that despair and starting something healthy. Whether they identify and utilize that opportunity is another issue altogether.

  13. #53
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    Often times what's considered an arranged marriage is really an arranged meeting. A family is approached about a possible suitor, and the young person has the option of saying yay or nay to meeting the suitor. If the young person doesn't like the suitor, another one will be located.

    It's a bit different with child marriages as there's little to no consent there. But in arranged marriages of adults, more often than not it's simply an arranged first date--not the marriage as a whole.

    FWIW, surveys have indicated couples in arranged marriages report higher happiness/satisfaction levels than those who married romantically.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    FWIW, surveys have indicated couples in arranged marriages report higher happiness/satisfaction levels than those who married romantically.
    I suspect that the key word there is "report." If a woman or girl is living in a culture in which speaking up for herself can lead to an honor-killing or acid attack, she's unlikely to report that her parents picked out a husband who beats her, and she wishes she could safely get a divorce.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by mag View Post
    I would be shocked if the love each other at this point.
    According to marriage studies that I've read, you don't really know if you love someone or not until you've been married about five years. Not dating, but married (I would guess living together for that long would work the same way, but the studies were focused on marriage).

    It takes that long for an infatuation to wear off and for the couple to spend enough time together and have enough experience to know that their emotions really do run deep--or not. There are good reasons that most divorces occur in the first few years of marriage.

    So I would be shocked if they love each other, too.

    And before someone says that this whole five year thing would be negated if people had longer premarital relationships--not so. Couples who date for years are more likely to divorce than couples who date for one to two years before marrying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    And yet, they clearly don't let God have control since they do everything in their power to have as many children as possible. They've mentioned many times about "trying for #20". So you can -try- to have kids, but you can't -try- to not have them (simply by not having sex...I'm not going to try to get them to use birth control)? How is that leaving it up to God? That's taking control yourself.
    Perhaps, but in terms of degree, there is a pretty vast difference there in terms of control.

    Quote Originally Posted by heckles View Post
    Eh, I find that Americans who speak so positively of other cultures' forced marriages would poop a brick if they lost their own rights to choose their spouses. The hard truth is that a lot of people have dysfunctional parents who would project their own dysfunctional values if they got to choose one's spouse, and then the kids are hosed for life. If your father didn't find anything wrong with smacking you and your mother around, he won't have a problem with the fact that the husband he's chosen for you is already known for giving women the beatdown.
    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    Often times what's considered an arranged marriage is really an arranged meeting. A family is approached about a possible suitor, and the young person has the option of saying yay or nay to meeting the suitor. If the young person doesn't like the suitor, another one will be located.

    It's a bit different with child marriages as there's little to no consent there. But in arranged marriages of adults, more often than not it's simply an arranged first date--not the marriage as a whole.
    Both of those things are true. If the parents value a child, then the parents search carefully for a good spouse and allow the child the right of refusal.

    There are also families that have children they do not value personally (nearly always girls) and the marriage of such a child is nothing more than a financial transaction.

    Since this is usually a matter of family financial status, I would guess that most people who are surveyed about marital satisfaction come from the former--not because they are threatened,but because financially secure people tend to live in more populated areas and have more education, and thus are more likely to be tapped in surveys than people who live in poverty. I would assume that couples in most of Yemen, for example, would not be surveyed. Poverty is also strongly correlated with marital misery, while people who have education and financial security are more likely to be satisfied both maritally and in general.

    Note that I said "more likely," so there is no need to tell me that isn't always true. That would be a given.

    Happiness is also a relative thing. In my last Geography class, our professor showed us a photo of a middle-aged Yemeni man with his two wives, who were 13 and 15 (that one had a baby on her hip). We were all appalled, of course, but the professor told us that those girls were very happy to be married to that man because he was quite rich by Yememi standards and didn't beat them; they both came from villages where they were starving and were regularly knocked around by their fathers and brothers. They considered themselves very lucky. So yeah, Americans don't like the idea of teenagers married to dirty old men, but that's not the kind of life we are faced with, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by heckles View Post
    The modern American system sure isn't perfect, as our divorce rate can attest, but at least the children of dysfunctional parents have the opportunity of leaving behind that despair and starting something healthy. Whether they identify and utilize that opportunity is another issue altogether.
    Well, maybe. But if you are arguing that dysfunctional families are likely to arrange marriages for their children that are equally dysfunctional, then there probably isn't a whole lot of difference between the rate at which dysfunctional marry their children off to dysfunctional people and the rate at which people who come from dysfunctional families marry themselves off to dysfunctional people, too. Yes, Western children of dysfunctional parents have a chance at happiness, but so do people who have arranged marriages. Do you really think there is a whole lot of difference in outcome there?
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Yes, Western children of dysfunctional parents have a chance at happiness, but so do people who have arranged marriages. Do you really think there is a whole lot of difference in outcome there?
    Yes, I do think that giving those offspring a chance to make healthier choices can make a big difference in breaking unhealthy cycles. Strictly anecdotal, but several years ago I knew a man in his 20s whose mother was on her fifth marriage by age 50. Her cache of husbands included a convicted child molester and a wife-beater, and she also had a lot of bottom-feeder boyfriends she never married. Her son very deliberately decided that he would live differently and he’s doing very well by all accounts, and that's largely because he did not listen to his mother's ideas about life. She's still up to her nonsense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    And yet, they clearly don't let God have control since they do everything in their power to have as many children as possible. They've mentioned many times about "trying for #20". So you can -try- to have kids, but you can't -try- to not have them (simply by not having sex...I'm not going to try to get them to use birth control)? How is that leaving it up to God? That's taking control yourself.

    Most Quiverful families who "leave it up to God" end up with 8-10. It takes a lot of work in the bedroom to have 19 kids, even if you are really fertile.
    I'm kind of wondering if they might see losing the last pregnancy as a sign from God to stop?????????? Does God want you to lose another one? Or you own life and leave the other 19 kids and three grandchildren without a mother/grandmother?

    And who says that Michelle has to be the one to not use birth control, if that's what she thinks caused the early miscarriage. Jim Bob could take responsibility on that one!! (snip snip)

    I was raised Catholic and am an only child. One of my mom's brothers had 9 kids. I went to school with people who had 8, 9 and 13 kids. So I am not against having a lot of kids. It's just the reasoning behind trying to keep having them and putting their health and lives in danger that irks me.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by heckles View Post
    Yes, I do think that giving those offspring a chance to make healthier choices can make a big difference in breaking unhealthy cycles. Strictly anecdotal, but several years ago I knew a man in his 20s whose mother was on her fifth marriage by age 50. Her cache of husbands included a convicted child molester and a wife-beater, and she also had a lot of bottom-feeder boyfriends she never married. Her son very deliberately decided that he would live differently and he’s doing very well by all accounts, and that's largely because he did not listen to his mother's ideas about life. She's still up to her nonsense.
    I can share some anecdotes, too, and for either side of the argument. In fact, I already did.

    But if we are talking generalities, then I think the stats are pretty clear on what happens to most kids from dysfunctional families--although I am not entirely convinced that there is such a thing as a functional family.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  19. #59

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    Michelle probably feels that if God wanted her to stop, he'd just not allow a baby to be conceived, no matter how much "alone time" happens.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    I think the stats are pretty clear on what happens to most kids from dysfunctional families--although I am not entirely convinced that there is such a thing as a functional family.
    Yes, children from dysfunctional families have the deck largely stacked against them in life. Handing over their adult decisions to their dysfunctional parents will just make those odds even worse.

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