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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    The thing I'm surprised at is that the parents are okay with a 'younger man'. I wonder how much money his windshield repair business makes; does Jim Bob insure this 18 year old can provide for his family?
    That would be part of Jim Bob's obligation as Jessa's father, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Susan1 View Post
    This "courtship" thing pretty much sounds like arranged marriages, except they actually got to meet each other at church (of course) first.
    .

    It's all very Victorian: http://www.datehookup.com/content-an...torian-era.htm
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    That would be part of Jim Bob's obligation as Jessa's father, yes.
    It sure should be the way they have this set up, but the kid is 18. I just don't believe it.
    He'll probably have to drop out of community college Heck, maybe instead he'll (the to-be husband once they are married, not the father) let Jessa attend too!

  3. #23
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    I have seen most of the shows. I always wonder about cousin Amy, who wears jeans and seems to have a normal life. How do they condone her behavior and include her in everything, but their own daughters are not allowed to behave that way. And why don't the daughters want to be more like Amy?

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    It sure should be the way they have this set up, but the kid is 18. I just don't believe it.
    Homeschooled kids in general and very religious homeschooled kids in particular are far more likely to become entrepreneurs than go to college, and are also far more likely to be successful at entrepreneurship than "normal" kids.

    But whatever the kid is doing, Jim Bob would be derelict in his duty to Jessa if he allowed her to marry someone who could not support her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Susan1 View Post
    I have seen most of the shows. I always wonder about cousin Amy, who wears jeans and seems to have a normal life. How do they condone her behavior and include her in everything, but their own daughters are not allowed to behave that way. And why don't the daughters want to be more like Amy?
    They say they do not judge Amy and she is free to do as she likes. However, if Amy were ever to be seen as influencing the kids to live as she does, she'd be outta there--as very likely would be any of the kids who might leave.

    "And if thy right eye offend thee,pluck it out, and cast it from thee; for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish,and not that thy whole body should be cast into Hell”
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post

    "And if thy right eye offend thee,pluck it out, and cast it from thee; for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish,and not that thy whole body should be cast into Hell”
    Alrighty then!!! :-)

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan1 View Post
    I always wonder about cousin Amy, who wears jeans and seems to have a normal life. How do they condone her behavior and include her in everything, but their own daughters are not allowed to behave that way.
    It's not uncommon for fundamentalist parents to keep a non-believing relative or neighbor on the periphery to use as a negative example. As soon as Amy has any type of misfortune, her "lifestyle" will be cited as the cause.

  7. #27

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    Arranged marriages aren't just Victorian. A friend of mine who grew up in India but moved to the US about 15 years ago for college and work has married the woman his family picked out for him. He flew to India about a month before the wedding to meet her, they married and then he brought her to the US. They seem to be very happy together and are expecting their first child. It's their culture and it seems to work for them. Who am I to criticize?

    As for the Duggers, I don't get the hostility they seem to engender here. To me, watching their show is like watching orangatangs at the zoo - they do some things I can relate to and some thing that I think are deinitely wierd but it's not as if it's something that I have to approve or disapprove; it's just a whole different culture and that's what makes it interesting. Would I want to live the way the Diggars do? Not particularly but then I don't particularly want to be an orangatang either.
    I'd rather be thought of as absolutely ridiculous than as absolutely boring.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Homeschooled kids in general and very religious homeschooled kids in particular are far more likely to become entrepreneurs than go to college, and are also far more likely to be successful at entrepreneurship than "normal" kids.
    Do you think it's because there's a clear network that these new entrepreneurs have to work with? I'd think the population is still quite small comparatively to a recent college grad from a standard university with its own alumni pool. Therefore, there are more opportunities for resources, guidance, and assistance. I also don't know what sort of backgrounds people who get to be religiously homeschooled have, but it seems to suggest that the family can afford to take the time to homeschool their children or afford someone to homeschool their kids exclusively. That's sort of an advantage there as well.

    I'm not saying this to negate any sort of point, which is that religiously homeschooled kids are more likely to become entrepreneurs and be successful at it than a "normal" kid. I also know that it was brought up because someone questioned if this kid can provide for his future wife. I'm just curious as to why these homeschooled kids may be more successful in that aspect.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  9. #29
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    On Television Without Pity there is a poster who has adopted nephews from a family member that followed Bill Gothard and for some reason could not support the children any longer (I don't know the story there). She talks a lot about the realities of trying to mainstream them, how little they know about functioning in the world, and recently she posted "For every 1 Jim Bob or Gil Bates, there are tens if not hundreds of families living in poverty". Anna has a sister who lives in a pop-up trailer with I think 5 children. The kids probably have enough food, but they don't have much else. Honestly, I'm not sure you can even say most of them have education. Homeschool can be done right, but it can also be done very very poorly. But no, I don't think any of these people are homeschooling because they can 'afford' to have a stay at home Mom, rather they make a lot of sacrifices. When the kids are all young, it is very very hard (evidenced by Michelle's breakdown and how she talks of how much help neighbors and the church had to give her)- then the oldest take over for the mother, and the Sister Moms are born. I have no problem with kids helping out around the house, but the youngest Duggars clearly look towards their older sisters as Mothers, not towards their actual mother. (Again- this can be done better- I think the Bates family has managed to have kids helping without losing track of who is the actual mother among the youngest.)

    Even the Duggars had the 'buy used and save the difference" motto for quite some time. They were packed to the rafters in their house before TLC came through and finished the build-their-own project. (I wonder if it would even be done by now at the rate they were working on it...) TLC also furnished it. Clearly now they have plenty of money- but how much of that money is being held in trust for their children? Will their kids have any nest egg to start with?

    Jim Bob is an astute business man- he also leases land out to cell phone towers, and has several real estate investments. I think Josh's car business was orignally his too. But with 20 kids- how many businesses can he hand down?


    I had a boyfriend in high school who was homeschooled until his sophomore year. He had a lawn mowing business and now he has a large landscape business. But it took him a long time to get there (he's 30 now). He had way more ideas that were flops than he did that were successes. His family supported him for a long time, but he was one of only 5.

  10. #30

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    I said "afford" I didn't mean just monetarily (though that's probably the biggest factor) but having the resources from many others who take the time to help you. How many people have that?
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I said "afford" I didn't mean just monetarily (though that's probably the biggest factor) but having the resources from many others who take the time to help you. How many people have that?
    Based on Michelle's description of her breakdown, when all of her kids were young- I don't think she had that until the situation was very dire.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    Anna has a sister who lives in a pop-up trailer with I think 5 children.
    That type of situation has to be pretty grating on a kid who is introverted. Do these kids ever get time to themselves, away from other kids, noise, and other stimuli?

  13. #33
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    As for the Duggers, I don't get the hostility they seem to engender here.
    If TLC didn't gloss over their true beliefs, I think there would actually be a lot more hostility. I first heard about the Duggars before their tv fame. For a college paper, I had to do some research on fundamentalism and came across Bill Gothard, one of the articles related to him was a lengthy interview with Michelle where she talked about how great his teachings were. One of the lessons she particularly found useful was something called blanket training; this involves laying a blanket on the floor, putting a toddler in the center, and placing one of their toys in the corner, when they go for it, you smack them till they learn that they have to wait till they're given permission. They've never discussed this on their show, and the interviews where they discuss using this on their children have become almost impossible to find, and I don't think that's a coincidence.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaphyre14 View Post
    Arranged marriages aren't just Victorian.
    Victorian marriages were not considered arranged marriages. The courtship practices the Duggars believe in, however, are very similar to the courtship practices of the middle and upper class Victorians.

    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Do you think it's because there's a clear network that these new entrepreneurs have to work with? I'd think the population is still quite small comparatively to a recent college grad from a standard university with its own alumni pool. Therefore, there are more opportunities for resources, guidance, and assistance. I also don't know what sort of backgrounds people who get to be religiously homeschooled have, but it seems to suggest that the family can afford to take the time to homeschool their children or afford someone to homeschool their kids exclusively. That's sort of an advantage there as well.

    I'm not saying this to negate any sort of point, which is that religiously homeschooled kids are more likely to become entrepreneurs and be successful at it than a "normal" kid. I also know that it was brought up because someone questioned if this kid can provide for his future wife. I'm just curious as to why these homeschooled kids may be more successful in that aspect.
    The theory that I have read is that homeschooled kids in general tend to be be both independent and willing to learn and investigate things on their own. The religious ones do generally (but not always) have support from a community, but they also usually have a strong belief in the Protestant work ethic--they work long hours and don't spend their free time partying.

    Homeschoolers come from across the financial spectrum; most are middle class. In terms of resources....I think you might be overestimating how many resources most people use for homeschooling. Homeschoolers usually buy a curriculum of some kind and for some that's all they do. Others supplement purchased curriculum to varying degrees. Some simply come up with their own, using whatever resources they have. State requirements can make a big difference there; some states require homeschoolers to meet all the same standards as public school students and take the same standardized tests; other states do not.

    Homeschoolers are a really mixed group. It's very difficult to say what is typical because there is so much diversity among them.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  15. #35
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    That type of situation has to be pretty grating on a kid who is introverted. Do these kids ever get time to themselves, away from other kids, noise, and other stimuli?
    From the research I've done, no. Typically the thought is that being alone would allow you time to do things that would not be approved or by G-d. On 19 Kids and Counting and other media coverage there is the buddy system that is touted. However, they only show it as a way to get the younger child dressed and ready for the day. Truth is that the children in such homes are often monitored by the other children who are encouraged to report on their siblings.

    It helps keep everyone in line and helps keep them there rather than running off to live a life of sin. In many of these families the siblings don't actually trust each other because they know that someone is watching and tattling.

    They say they do not judge Amy and she is free to do as she likes. However, if Amy were ever to be seen as influencing the kids to live as she does, she'd be outta there--as very likely would be any of the kids who might leave.
    From what I can tell of a family that lives near me and appears much like the Duggars, they appear tolerant of someone like Amy to her face and then use her as an example of what is wrong with society. Some have said that Amy is pretty much seen on camera but that behind the scenes she is not invited or included if it is not for the show.

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Homeschoolers usually buy a curriculum of some kind and for some that's all they do. Others supplement purchased curriculum to varying degrees. Some simply come up with their own, using whatever resources they have. State requirements can make a big difference there; some states require homeschoolers to meet all the same standards as public school students and take the same standardized tests; other states do not.
    FWIW the book that Jim Bob and Michelle wrote a couple of years ago said that the Duggars use a purchased curriculum - I think it's this one: http://www.aceministries.com/homeschool/
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    FWIW the book that Jim Bob and Michelle wrote a couple of years ago said that the Duggars use a purchased curriculum - I think it's this one: http://www.aceministries.com/homeschool/
    That one, BJU and A Beka are very popular with religious homeschoolers, although there are a few others. I think A Beka is the most commonly used, but that might be because it is used in a lot of Christian schools as well as by homeschoolers. I believe ACE is as well.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  18. #38
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    Kelly Bates just wrote a huge post about ABeka.

    Her blog is really good- and she answers comments people leave (sometimes the comments are more telling than the posts- the recent ones about courtship especially. Very interesting to see how they do it.)

  19. #39

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    The more I discover about the Duggars; their beliefs and lifestyle, the less impressed I am.
    The person who "profits" from their "public" persona is Jim Bob; no one else.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArtisticFan View Post
    From the research I've done, no. Typically the thought is that being alone would allow you time to do things that would not be approved or by G-d.
    That sounds terrible for the kids who need some time to recharge. Silence and solitude for the purpose of Godliness, and all that.

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