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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by BittyBug View Post
    You seem to be assuming that a skater would perform in front of the same judge or judges at multiple competitions, which is rarely the case. Also, it would be pretty unethical for a judge to discuss a performance with colleagues or base his or her marks on anything other than what happens on the ice at the competition the judge is assessing. Yes, judges are human, but they are not supposed to be thinking, "Gee, everyone is raving about so and so's layback, let me give it a +3," they're supposed to be thinking, "What GOE criteria do I see here at this moment."
    Oh, please. First, judges are not trial juries. They are not supposed to exchange their opinions during a competition, but they can talk about it afterward. In fact they routinely talk about their decisions in post-competition meetings and some are required to explain/defend their scores if their scores look grossly out of line. It's a tradition that goes back to the 6.0 era. Second, judges judge not only GOEs (if one is unable to judge GOE adequately one should not be sitting there in the first place), but there is that minor thing they have to judge called "components." Other judges' opinions about a programs content and theme and choreography can make an impression on the mind of other judges. Remember Joe Inman's remark before 2010?

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    Evan needs to pack it in. He won his Olympic gold. Sure, the professional world does not have the same draw as previous Olympic champions... but leave competitive skating with some pride on what you have accomplished.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jun Y View Post
    Oh, please. First, judges are not trial juries. They are not supposed to exchange their opinions during a competition, but they can talk about it afterward. In fact they routinely talk about their decisions in post-competition meetings and some are required to explain/defend their scores if their scores look grossly out of line. It's a tradition that goes back to the 6.0 era.
    From U.S. Figure Skating's Rule Book - I assume the ISU has similar standards:

    Judges
    JR 1.00
    Standard of Conduct
    JR 1.01 The following Judges’ Creed Standard of Conduct is established for the guidance of all judges of figure skating, ice
    dance and synchronized skating:
    • I consider it an honor and a privilege to be a judge of figure skating, ice dance or synchronized skating.
    • I shall make my judgment to the best of my ability with all humility and then shall keep my own counsel unless questioned officially.
    I shall free my mind of all former impressions, be cooperative and punctual, and do my best always to improve my
    knowledge and to uphold the dignity of the sport.
    JR 1.02 Judges shall not stand or sit together nor converse with each other or with spectators or contestants while judging.
    They shall not compare notes with one another and must judge independently. In addition, judges may not consult previously
    prepared marks during a competition.
    JR 1.03 Judges will not write down the announced scores of any skater or team during an event they are judging.
    JR 1.04 Judges must not bring any form of electronic communicative system to the judges’ stand. See also rule 1240.
    JR 1.05 When judging ice dance, pair or free skate tests and competitions, judges shall stand or sit at locations from which they can see the complete dance patterns of ice dance or the complete program of singles/pairs or synchronized skating and can hear the music.
    JR 1.06 Judges shall refrain from publishing or emailing any statements, or making comments in online chat rooms or discussion boards concerning tests and competitions in which they have served as judges.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jun Y View Post
    Second, judges judge not only GOEs (if one is unable to judge GOE adequately one should not be sitting there in the first place), but there is that minor thing they have to judge called "components."
    Really? I would never have known. So take my comment and replace GOE with "components."

    Quote Originally Posted by Jun Y View Post
    Other judges' opinions about a programs content and theme and choreography can make an impression on the mind of other judges.
    See JR 1.01 above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jun Y View Post
    Remember Joe Inman's remark before 2010?
    Inman did speak out, but did his comments "make an impression on the mind of other judges"? You can't necessarily compare scores from one competition to another, but Plushenko's components scores for his free skate at 2010 Euros, which preceded Inman's remark, were 83.10, and his Transition marks ranged from 7.00 to 8.50, with an average of 7.65. His corresponding scores in Vancouver were 82.80, and his Transition marks ranged from 6.00 to 8.75, with an average of 7.25. Was that difference due to Inman's comment? We'll never know, but for comparison, Stephane Lambiel's Transition scores from Euros ranged of 7.50 to 8.75 with an average of 8.25, while in Vancouver they ranged from 7.25 to 9.00 with an average of 8.05. Given that Lambiel's program was pretty packed with transitions what conclusion would you draw? His Transition scores also varied more and were lower on average in Vancouver - was that also due to Inman's remark?

    I'll go back to your original comment, which was:

    Skating is a subjective sport and it is not uncommon that many judges "don't know how they feel" about a program or performance upon first viewing. Their opinions tend to take shape and reach consensus over numerous viewings and discussions with colleagues and "buzz on the street."
    You don't seem to have a lot of faith in judges if you think they can't make up their own minds.
    "I miss footwork that has any kind of a discernible pattern. The goal of a step sequence should not be for a skater to show the same ice coverage as a Zamboni and take about as much time as an ice resurface. " ~ Zemgirl, reflecting on a pre-IJS straight line sequence

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    Wasn't 2012 Europeans Sheffield, which Pluschenko won - Kevin VDP withdrew after the SP but Evgeni won the competition.
    It absolutely was. He beat my beloved Gachinski, and I didn't know whether to cheer or cry...

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by BittyBug View Post
    You don't seem to have a lot of faith in judges if you think they can't make up their own minds.
    All right. I admit that, in my original comment, I made assertions about judges forming their impression on some programs over the season. Obviously, I'm not a judge and neither do I have to judges' internal and unconscious thoughts/impressions/reactions. So it's my speculation.

    Nevertheless, I do not believe the USFS rule 1.01 and 1.06 preclude judges from discussing programs AFTER a competition AMONG THEMSELVES. Whether and how much each person is influenced by their fellow judges, I am not in the position to say, but each person can draw one's own conclusion, and I have mine, which is that there is definitely influence, albeit variable for every person. Did Inman's comment influence some judges? (The fact that he did circulate his comment/question among judges was against neither USFS nor ISU rule, nor was it unethical, contrary to the "outcry" from some observers.) I'm not in their mind so I can't say with certainty. I think we can safely assume that one comment/question/reminder/nudge from Inman would not suddenly reform the way components are judged among all international judges. But are you sure it had no effect?

    Going back to the issue of whether keeping one's programs secret until the last big event and bursting onto the scene would give one competitive advantage. My guess is no, there is no advantage over one's opponents in the field, and there is a lot of risk entailing disadvantage for judges if you allow them to see the program only once. In contrast, high profile skaters who have many opportunities throughout the season to show their programs to international judges can clarify and "solidify" some judges' impression and attain a more, let's say accurate, assessment. I think it is very likely that judges' opinions of a program (especially things like the choice of music, theme, choreography, expression) evolve over the season, especially for high profile skaters, over multiple exposures, which may include directly judging it, seeing it in practice on events they judge other disciplines, seeing it on TV, seeing how their fellow judges give their scores, or hearing "the buzz." I tend to believe that seeing a program for the first time produces the least accurate assessment.

    So, aside from the question of peer influence, which we all agree is unmeasurable, there is the question of multiple exposures for at least some judges. There is a theory in neuroscience, with some empirical data to back it up, that says that the mind tends to get used to and form more favorable opinion about an art piece that is initially jarring or shocking. An example is "The Rite of Spring," which caused an angry riot upon its debut but is now a beloved classic.
    Last edited by Jun Y; 09-25-2013 at 03:34 AM.

  6. #86
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    [QUOTE=BittyBug;4000961]

    Inman did speak out, but did his comments "make an impression on the mind of other judges"? You can't necessarily compare scores from one competition to another, but Plushenko's components scores for his free skate at 2010 Euros, which preceded Inman's remark, were 83.10, and his Transition marks ranged from 7.00 to 8.50, with an average of 7.65. His corresponding scores in Vancouver were 82.80, and his Transition marks ranged from 6.00 to 8.75, with an average of 7.25. Was that difference due to Inman's comment? We'll never know, but for comparison, Stephane Lambiel's Transition scores from Euros ranged of 7.50 to 8.75 with an average of 8.25, while in Vancouver they ranged from 7.25 to 9.00 with an average of 8.05. Given that Lambiel's program was pretty packed with transitions what conclusion would you draw? His Transition scores also varied more and were lower on average in Vancouver - was that also due to Inman's remark?"

    Inman didn't issue a REMARK. He issued a letter with an accompanying video!! Was this for entertainment?? I think NOT. He knew Plushenko would be competing in Vancouver, and he didn't like it one bit. If it had been a skater he actually liked, I would have felt a bit differently about it. It harkened to USFS issuing the statements about Weir's programs in a press release-that he only had level threes on many of his components!! Talk about being shot in the foot before the race even started!! And it was his OWN Federation doing it! It might have been true, but it begs the question: WHY is he on the team, if he's THAT bad?? And why was he third in the Grand Prix Final?? I mean, if his programs were so low-level??

    All I know was , in Vancouver, for the SP, Plushenko was given 3 different scores of 21st and 2 22nd's. Yet THOSE judges were never asked to defend THAT kind of bias!! This is the man who finished FIRST in the SP, who has received these three scores, and NO ONE is held accountable?? Reason is this: Your Federation has to appeal on your behalf. A skater cannot lodge an appeal as an individual. So, although one of these scores was dropped, the computer did NOT randomly pick one of the other horribly deviant scores to drop!! The Russian Fed didn't want to make waves, and told Plushenko not to worry, that he could still win, and they didn't want the judges to be predjudiced against their ice dancers!! You are naieve if you don't believe there is still collusion , bias, and just plain old cheating in this sport. They just bury it now behind a cloak of anonymity and PCS scores.

    "You don't seem to have a lot of faith in judges if you think they can't make up their own minds."

    No, I sure DON'T. I lost faith in the current crop of judges a LONG time ago, and it doesn't look like it's getting any better. They can make up their own minds, and not all judges are corrupt, but there are judges who either feel pressured to 'run with the pack', or that go all yard sale with their scores. And judges are people. They have their favourites. And sometimes, as much as they don't want it to, it influences how they score that skater, as well as his/her competition.

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    Judges are not meant to talk about the competition with anyone during the event (between SP and FS) but afterwards they are free to discuss the competition. For major events they have round table discussions where this happens.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    [QUOTE=Triple Axel;4000991]
    Quote Originally Posted by BittyBug View Post

    Inman did speak out, but did his comments "make an impression on the mind of other judges"? You can't necessarily compare scores from one competition to another, but Plushenko's components scores for his free skate at 2010 Euros, which preceded Inman's remark, were 83.10, and his Transition marks ranged from 7.00 to 8.50, with an average of 7.65. His corresponding scores in Vancouver were 82.80, and his Transition marks ranged from 6.00 to 8.75, with an average of 7.25. Was that difference due to Inman's comment? We'll never know, but for comparison, Stephane Lambiel's Transition scores from Euros ranged of 7.50 to 8.75 with an average of 8.25, while in Vancouver they ranged from 7.25 to 9.00 with an average of 8.05. Given that Lambiel's program was pretty packed with transitions what conclusion would you draw? His Transition scores also varied more and were lower on average in Vancouver - was that also due to Inman's remark?"

    Inman didn't issue a REMARK. He issued a letter with an accompanying video!! Was this for entertainment?? I think NOT. He knew Plushenko would be competing in Vancouver, and he didn't like it one bit. If it had been a skater he actually liked, I would have felt a bit differently about it. It harkened to USFS issuing the statements about Weir's programs in a press release-that he only had level threes on many of his components!! Talk about being shot in the foot before the race even started!! And it was his OWN Federation doing it! It might have been true, but it begs the question: WHY is he on the team, if he's THAT bad?? And why was he third in the Grand Prix Final?? I mean, if his programs were so low-level??

    All I know was , in Vancouver, for the SP, Plushenko was given 3 different scores of 21st and 2 22nd's. Yet THOSE judges were never asked to defend THAT kind of bias!! This is the man who finished FIRST in the SP, who has received these three scores, and NO ONE is held accountable?? Reason is this: Your Federation has to appeal on your behalf. A skater cannot lodge an appeal as an individual. So, although one of these scores was dropped, the computer did NOT randomly pick one of the other horribly deviant scores to drop!! The Russian Fed didn't want to make waves, and told Plushenko not to worry, that he could still win, and they didn't want the judges to be predjudiced against their ice dancers!! You are naieve if you don't believe there is still collusion , bias, and just plain old cheating in this sport. They just bury it now behind a cloak of anonymity and PCS scores.

    "You don't seem to have a lot of faith in judges if you think they can't make up their own minds."

    No, I sure DON'T. I lost faith in the current crop of judges a LONG time ago, and it doesn't look like it's getting any better. They can make up their own minds, and not all judges are corrupt, but there are judges who either feel pressured to 'run with the pack', or that go all yard sale with their scores. And judges are people. They have their favourites. And sometimes, as much as they don't want it to, it influences how they score that skater, as well as his/her competition.
    Yes with plushenko you see two 5.00's and you don't see that again until the 20's. Only one skater had a Judge send an email against them. Not just any Judge but an instructor on how to judge. The same huge that gave weir 3 in us nationals. So Olympic inflation turned what might've been 3's for plushenko to 5's. First place and 20 plus place saw 5.00!

  9. #89

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    Lysacek is scheduled to participate in two upcoming USOC events: the Team USA Olympic Media Summit in Park City, Utah, Sept. 29-Oct. 2, and the "Road to Sochi Tour" kickoff in New York's Times Square on Oct. 29 -- link to yesterday's press release for the latter event: http://pressbox.teamusa.org/Pages/U-...00-Day-Co.aspx
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  10. #90
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    The problem with showing your program once is that if there is an area where a judge might mark something down because they think it's against the rules or maybe it even is, you don't get any chance to clarify or change your program. You also don't get any "mileage" on your program and the advantage of that should not be underestimated.
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  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jun Y View Post
    Going back to the issue of whether keeping one's programs secret until the last big event and bursting onto the scene would give one competitive advantage.
    I never argued for keeping one's program's secret until the last big event. I wondered if Lysacek would deliberately not compete before Nationals if he felt he wasn't at his best, as skaters such as V/M have spoken on the record about hiding any injury or pain so that the judges wouldn't look for the impact and mark them down. Whether it gave them a competitive advantage (or removed a disadvantage) isn't relevant: they thought it was and changed their behavior.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

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    Quote Originally Posted by BittyBug View Post
    From U.S. Figure Skating's Rule Book - I assume the ISU has similar standards:



    Inman did speak out, but did his comments "make an impression on the mind of other judges"? You can't necessarily compare scores from one competition to another, but Plushenko's components scores for his free skate at 2010 Euros, which preceded Inman's remark, were 83.10, and his Transition marks ranged from 7.00 to 8.50, with an average of 7.65. His corresponding scores in Vancouver were 82.80, and his Transition marks ranged from 6.00 to 8.75, with an average of 7.25. Was that difference due to Inman's comment? We'll never know, but for comparison, Stephane Lambiel's Transition scores from Euros ranged of 7.50 to 8.75 with an average of 8.25, while in Vancouver they ranged from 7.25 to 9.00 with an average of 8.05. Given that Lambiel's program was pretty packed with transitions what conclusion would you draw? His Transition scores also varied more and were lower on average in Vancouver - was that also due to Inman's remark?

    I'll go back to your original comment, which was:

    You don't seem to have a lot of faith in judges if you think they can't make up their own minds.
    Plushenko said his programs will have more transitions than ever before, is Inman going to send an email about it before Sochi? Because I know he likes to quote Plushenko's interviews. There are plenty of interviews translated on Plushenko's official page he could pass them to other judges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    The problem with showing your program once is that if there is an area where a judge might mark something down because they think it's against the rules or maybe it even is, you don't get any chance to clarify or change your program. You also don't get any "mileage" on your program and the advantage of that should not be underestimated.
    This! I think there have been a number of TOP skaters who have been very surprised to find they had an L2 spin they thought was a 4; or footwork that didn't meet the requirements, or an illegal lift or something. You need to have your program seen- I don't think just bringing in a judge is going to work the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    Yes with plushenko you see two 5.00's and you don't see that again until the 20's. Only one skater had a Judge send an email against them. Not just any Judge but an instructor on how to judge. The same huge that gave weir 3 in us nationals. So Olympic inflation turned what might've been 3's for plushenko to 5's. First place and 20 plus place saw 5.00!
    5.00 was way too generous. 3.00 would have been more appropriate for TR. Other PCS should have been much lower than they were as well given how slow he was, how little ice coverage he had, how basic his program construction was, etc. etc. etc.

    All in all, if you marked PCS based on what was actually performed on the ice - ignoring the technical elements and the skaters' reputation - there is no way Plushenko would have even been on the podium.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    This! I think there have been a number of TOP skaters who have been very surprised to find they had an L2 spin they thought was a 4; or footwork that didn't meet the requirements, or an illegal lift or something. You need to have your program seen- I don't think just bringing in a judge is going to work the same.
    Levels is the Technical panel call, not the judges. But you will find skaters who are aiming for a level 3 but they only do enough on the day to achieve a level 1. I have been a TC where a good skater didn't get any value on a combination spin because they didn't hold any of the basic positions for 2 revs. But it was probably a +1 GOE from the judges.

    It is quite normal for judges to monitor skaters programs and provide feedback throughout the season, whether it be after a competition or in a skater monitoring session. I am involved in a session on the weekend where skaters present their programs and the judges will provide feedback to the skaters in order to help them improve. Believe or not coaches and judges can look at programs differently and bringing a judge in can provide a fresh perspective to what what the coach sees day after day.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    I wonder if Frank taking on Gracie means that Evan is done for the season. With Ten and Gracie he has two skaters who will be competing all season for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    Levels is the Technical panel call, not the judges.
    Either way, it would be helpful for a skater to get to a competition so it can be called before a big event. Many have been surprised at early competitions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    5.00 was way too generous. 3.00 would have been more appropriate for TR. Other PCS should have been much lower than they were as well given how slow he was, how little ice coverage he had, how basic his program construction was, etc. etc. etc.

    All in all, if you marked PCS based on what was actually performed on the ice - ignoring the technical elements and the skaters' reputation - there is no way Plushenko would have even been on the podium.
    That's why I said it may have been Olympic inflation. Those two judges who gave plushenko 5.00 may have been like Inman and just like he gave weir a 3 in transitions at us nationals they may have given plushenko 3.00. Inman was obviously in close Contact with two judges in the men's sp panel and they all discussed what would be and appropriate score for plushenkos transitions in the sp and came up with 5 based on his interview in January! it's just strange that they didnt just go with 3! That's what Inman did and giving plushenko 5.00 was already below the corridor! And wasn't seen again until the 20th place plus skaters. It's true that some judges wanted plushenko to place below tenth place closer to 20th!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    It's true that some judges wanted plushenko to place below tenth place closer to 20th!!
    If this statement was a reality he would not have nearly won a second consecutive Olympic title.

    That's like saying the judges wanted to hold down Kostner, the reigning world silver medalist and just crowned European Champion and that's why she placed 16th in Vancouver. It's just wrong. She ended up there because she skated poorly.
    I meant to take the high road.... but I missed the exit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peibeck View Post
    If this statement was a reality he would not have nearly won a second consecutive Olympic title.

    That's like saying the judges wanted to hold down Kostner, the reigning world silver medalist and just crowned European Champion and that's why she placed 16th in Vancouver. It's just wrong. She ended up there because she skated poorly.
    Kostner placed an unfortunate 12th in Los Angeles at the 2009 Worlds. She was the 2008 World silver medalist. Rochette was the reigning World silver medalist going into Vancouver. Still, your point stands . . . skate poorly, place poorly.

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