10-08-2013, 05:51 AM
Wow - great to hear you are going again professordeb - we will definitely have to get together. I also would love to attend a VM fan get together.
10-08-2013, 08:02 AM
I too found the music jarring and felt it interrupted the flow and fluidity of the dance. I really enjoyed the short slow section, but the dance just didn't mesmerize me from start to finish as past programs have. Some of the lifts were sensational, but the same can be said of D&W.
I am a definite V&M uber and would really like to see them win their second Olympic gold. But I've felt that the fix was in after last year, when the judges responded to Carmen as they did. Even in that case, I could justify V&M's coming second at Worlds, because that dance was a little rough around the edges. OTOH, I couldn't understand their winning with Funny Face - that year I thought D&W skated a masterpiece and would have given them the title.
I really want to be wrong about the fix, but V&M's marks give me reason to doubt. I'm wondering whether Skate Canada is focusing on a (clean) Chan for gold in men's, in exchange for supporting D&W for gold?
I'm not a conspiracy theorist and would like to be wrong, though. And to be fair, I haven't seen D&W's programs yet.
Last edited by Japanfan; 10-08-2013 at 08:17 AM.
10-08-2013, 08:44 AM
- Rep Power
"Rough around the edges" effectively describes all of "their" skating.
V/M won in 2012 because they are better skaters and dancers. They show superior skating every time they are on ice.
10-08-2013, 09:45 AM
Originally Posted by Cherub721
My jaw hit the floor. I mean, we know Tessa is a beautiful girl but that cover is beyond. Since V&M are a team then the cover should be the both of them but just on the basis of the picture that jumped out at me, I could see why the Tessa only cover was one of the options. Stunning.
I'm up too late as it is so I'll be back tommorow but I must be missing something on how CoP is supposed to be judged. Or somebody is. I didn't find V&M's performance of Carmen at Worlds rough around the edges at all. There were a couple of perhaps rough moments; small miscues/bobble's if that's what you want to call them. However, while those errors may have lost V&M points they should have been cancelled out by the points Tessa and Scott should have racked up in the rest of their dance. From the lifts, overall skating skills (we've been through this before), the constant movement leaving very little room to rest, the commitment to the theme of the dance. The fact that V&M are one of the few teams who can maintain speed and the connection with one another (keeping in character) while performing what was IMO the most technically demanding FD of last season. There are other things as well.
Perhaps throughout the many changes that CoP continues to go through the above is no longer the case? CoP was made to be judged in segments and to rack up points as opposed to 6.0 where everything has to be considered then lumped together to come up with one blanket mark.
There are so many things in icedance that are in your face and easy to identify even to someone not familiar with it. OTOH, there are those many small subtle intangibles as well that V&M do that keep getting looked over. Things that are just as difficult as the big tricks that the current audiences seem to identify more with.
10-08-2013, 11:19 AM
My take on the whole "rough around the edges". The judges have made it clear the last few seasons that V&M must be perfect to beat D&W. Thus we all sit on pins and needles nervously watching their performances praying for perfection.
Well perfection is unrealistic. The problem is the difference in the way both teams skate. V&M are textbook skaters, smooth, great flow, great edges so the slightest deviation, the most miniscule adjustment is detected. D&W don't hold edges, hop and skip throughout their programs and are often on two feet. That makes it much harder for viewers to detect mistakes because their "style" is to skate choppy and hoppy so when they lose an edge or hit a toepick it's much harder to pick up because their choreography incorporates all these things.
Whenever I go back and rewatch competitions after having viewed them live I am always surprised myself how much better V&M skated than originally thought. The only difference between the two viewings is the anticipation is no longer a factor, the nerves are gone, I only see the skating. And it's good.
10-08-2013, 01:40 PM
Just saw K&C video. Maurizio talked about bad position (i think maybe in one of the lifts). And he said TS did there job, but - coaches didnt. So after this competition coaches now see better, what places they need to improve to made all positions and moves perfect.
10-08-2013, 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by pani
Yes, I also heard him talking about it
Sometimes (or always) it is necessary to put the programs out to understand what it takes to improve, and now they know what to do to solve what they saw during this competition.
I can't wait to see how this program will be at the end of this month.
10-08-2013, 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by bmcg
Often, people want to see more and more and more, because they can always do more. But you can't keep asking an A+ student to meet your expectations because they are yours, and therefore, unrealistic. Why not judge them for what they actually put out on the ice instead of what people (judges included) want them to do? That's the biggest issue here. I've seen many people who aren't big fans of V-M or even indifference to dance in general receive this program much better than some of their biggest fans, because for the former there aren't nerves or anticipation involved, they are simply watching and what they see is brilliant skating; what the latter see is, "what, this? After Carmen?" and they disregard it based on what they CAN do, ignoring what they ARE doing.
Well, you know what? That's not fair. Not when you know the resume these guys have. They don't need to prove to anyone how versatile they are, they do not owe anything to anyone. Why make demands of them? This is a solid program. Can it get better? Yes. And it will. Stop hurting about Carmen, it got shafted, yes, but that's in the past. Push your own hopes and expectations aside and see this program for what it is.
10-08-2013, 05:30 PM
I totally agree, Golightly. I love everything they do because of their awesome style, graceful elegance, but especially for the fact that they are so very versatile and willing to go places other skaters can't or wont go. Kudos to them I loved both new dances because they are actually dancing!
10-08-2013, 05:52 PM
Adorable new picture from HPC. X
10-08-2013, 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by icefan1005
10-08-2013, 07:04 PM
It's fine that you preferred one program over the other, but the judging isn't simply meant to reward the best-constructed or most entertaining program. Die Fleidermaus was genius in that it did a great job at emphasizing D/W's strengths and hiding their weaknesses, but the weaknesses were still there and it's the judges' job to see through the smoke and mirrors of their choreography. Often the most popular performance isn't the one that deserves to win, this isn't So You Think You Can Dance.
Originally Posted by Japanfan
10-08-2013, 07:12 PM
I also agree with you both.....they ARE the best!
Originally Posted by girlscouse62
10-08-2013, 07:14 PM
My thoughts exactly. When i see DF again I can see the little errors. VM skated FF better at 4c but they were enchanting at worlds......they always are to me.
Originally Posted by Zazy
10-08-2013, 08:42 PM
I saw some youtube videos someone did of Die Fledermaus and Funny Face viewed from the waist down. It's amazing when you watch both how little D&W did with their feet and amazing to see V&M did so much more with their feet. Watching both programs during that season you could forgive someone who's first impression was the opposite. It "appeared" D&W were doing so much more because of their upper body movement and the reverse for V&M. I think to a better trained eye and a number of viewings it became obvious who skated the demanding program, and that team won the world title because of it.
I´ll see if I can find those videos again but if anyone else has seen them feel free to jump in and post.
10-08-2013, 09:24 PM
The youtube channel "99adep" has a few feet-only videos.
10-08-2013, 09:42 PM
- Rep Power
I just mute the music with D/W - it makes it easier to compare their performance to V/M. Not long ago I did it with their Samson & Delilah and surprisingly came to the conclusion that they finished in the right spot.
Originally Posted by Emdee
10-08-2013, 09:45 PM
Guys, what do you think about costumes? My thought is they will use darker costumes at SC for FD. Its like they show - we need to remeber Mahler and now will add some more mature details in costums
I wish Tessa will have head bandan for SD. Like she had at wedding photo-shoot
10-08-2013, 09:49 PM
I´m of the same thought regarding costumes. I'd like a bit darker ( I liked the purple ombre dress she wore in practice).
10-08-2013, 09:57 PM
I learn today that V-M uber waste lot off time on D-W watchig than there is some things about this team that makes you watch them so much no that you can not deny? enjoy your watching and rewatiching with feets without feets on music off music so many ways to watch the team you hate so much