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  1. #1
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    How would Vanessa Riley have scored Bonaly vs Sato at the 94 Worlds

    Vanessa Riley loved Yuka Sato's skating. She pretty much always scored her way higher than anyone else. One example of this is at the 92 Olympics back when Sato had almost no technical abilities yet she had her 2nd in the long program ahead of Ito and Chen who both skated amazingly. She even gave Sato a higher technical mark than Ito who had a strong performance and a clean triple axel, and Chen who had a clean skate with 6 triples. Her marks were 5.7 tech, 5.7 pres for Sato, 5.6 tech, 5.5 pres for Ito, and 5.4 tech, 5.5 pres for Chen. Sato only had 3 triples and her hardest jump was a triple loop, and she singled her other one. Almost all the other judges had her either 7th or 8th in the free skate in Albertville. She probably deserved only 8th behind Karen Preston who did 6 triples.

    Vanessa Riley hated Bonaly's skating. The 92 Olympics she had her 10th in the short when she was 3rd. At the 92 Worlds she had her 17 in the short and 22nd in the long when she was 7th and 12th.

    Riley didnt even consider Bonaly a superior technical skater than Sato. In fact she consistently scored Bonaly higher in presentation than in technical scores. So Bonaly doing alot of hard jumps did not impress her, to her basic skating and edges were much of what made up technical merit, not mostly jumps like most judges see. That probably also explains why she would give Sato such high technical marks, higher than people who were way stronger jumpers than her.

    How would Riley have scored Bonaly against Sato at the 94 Worlds where Bonaly was so upset she lost to Sato by .1. I bet Riley would have had them about 1.4 marks total in points. Probably would have given Sato 5.9, 5.9 and Bonaly 5.2, 5.2 or something similar to that. Also what do you think her reaction was seeing Bonaly not accept her silver behind Sato given how she feels about both skaters,and that Bonaly didnt even skate well at that event. Do you think she almost had a heart attack.

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    Since you already have an answer to this- as you explained in detail- I don't see the point of this separate thread. I think there is already a thread about Surya, and those who strongly disliked her have already voiced their opinions there.

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    This isnt a Surya bashing thread. I didnt say I agreed with Riley's marks for her. I certainly dont agree with some of Riley's marks for Sato (92 Olympic scores were crazy for what she did there). I just think it is funny to imagine what Riley might think or do in this situation given that it is probably her all time favorite and all time least favorite skaters that were involved in this crazy close decision and controversy. It is just funny to think what she would do if she were a judge here, or what she thought watching at home (if she was).

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    Who is anyone to say how a particular judge would have judged a skater? I am sure you could find any number of competitions where Riley judged both skaters to see where she placed both of them.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    I agree with Riley's scoring of Bonaly. As to Sato it is clear she liked her skating. Sato did have far superior skating skills to Bonaly.

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    No way should Sato had any ordinals over Ito and Chen in the LP at the 92 Olympics though.

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    The commentators for both BBC and Scott Hamilton on CBS certainly took note of Riley giving Sato a 5.7 for technical merit for her Albertville performance:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYt0QKNCoqA 4:45-5:20
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYt0QKNCoqA 5:00

    If she had a triple lutz and triple flip back then she probably would have given her 6.0 on both sets of marks.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lnt175 View Post
    No way should Sato had any ordinals over Ito and Chen in the LP at the 92 Olympics though.
    Or ever

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    Riley possibly attached more importance to jump quality, jump technique, spins, footwork, speed and basics when marking the first mark.

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    I feel that Riley actually marked skaters with a lot of what IJS has given importance to, as opposed to what usually was 'accepted' in 6.0. In the free skate at the 1992 Worlds, IIRC she marked Sato as 2nd best and Alice-Sue Claeys as 3rd, with Laetitia Hubert way out of it (maybe 10th or lower, even though she just barely missed the podium). It's hilarious she had Bonaly 22nd. She was miserable in that event, with plenty of major errors and under-rotations.

    Anyways, seeing how Kerrigan and a lot of the others skated that day, I don't think she was that far off the mark with Sato and Claeys (who had an outstanding performance).

  11. #11
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    When did Vanessa Riley stop coaching major events? I would have loved to see what her scores would have been for many skaters who competed after her tenure. Even now, I'd love to see her seemingly nutty marks. As Tony Wheeler points out, I do think Vanessa Riley's marks are, for the most part, pretty reasonable considering what we now value in skating. I remember that funny video about inappropriate costumes and how she kept reiterating that although she deducted for Alexander Fadeev's see-through pants, she still ranked him first in the long program. Even though the interview kept pressing her on her low score, Riley kept saying that what matters was the rankings, not the actual points. It seems like even at the end of 6.0, people still thought the actual quantitative sum matters (other than for bragging rights or symbolic rights like getting a 6.0).
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

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    She was a referee at 2009 Skate America, which is the last event where I specifically remember hearing/seeing her name. I wonder if she's judged any IJS events where the scores weren't anonymous, because it would be interesting to see how she'd use the GOEs and component scores.
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpusa09/

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    I had posted in a previous thread Vanessa Riley's ordinals for the original program at 1992 Olympics vs. the actual placements of the skaters. Very interesting.

    1. Yamaguchi (1)
    2. Kerrigan (2)
    3. Hubert (5)
    4. Sato (7)
    5. Rachkova (13)
    6. Torp-Lind (8)
    7. Ito (4)
    8. Bonaly (3)
    9.Chen (11)
    10. Chouinard (10)
    11. Harding (6)
    12. Conway (17)
    13. Neske (16)
    14. Kulovana (9)
    15. Dimitrova (18)
    16. Preston (12)
    17. Lepina (22)
    18. Kiellmann (15)

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    Who is anyone to say how a particular judge would have judged a skater? I am sure you could find any number of competitions where Riley judged both skaters to see where she placed both of them.
    Based on what we know of Riley it is difficult but definitely possible to guess. Her judging philosophy and principles are an interesting topic for discussion. What we can glean is that she had a sense of what ladies skating should be that was boldly different from her contemporaries. She had a very British sense of rules. Once there was a rule in writing about "modest and dignified" costumes, she insisted on applying that rule.

  15. #15
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    These would have been Riley's final results of the 92 Olympics:

    Gold- Yamaguchi, 1st short and long
    Silver- Sato, 4th short and 2nd long
    Bronze- Kerrigan, 2nd short and 5th long
    4th- Ito, 7th short, and 3rd long
    5th- Chen, 9th short, and 4th long
    6th- Chouinard, 10th short, and 6th long
    7th- Harding 11th short, 7th long
    8th- Bonaly 8th short, 10th long
    9th- Neske 13th short, 8th long
    10th- Rachkova 5th short, 12th long
    11th- Preston 16th short, 9th long
    12th- Torp-Lind 6th short, 16th long
    13th- Kiellmann 18th short, 11th long
    14th- Dimitrova 15th short, 13th long
    15th- Conway 12th short, 15th long
    16th- Hubert 3rd short, 20th long
    17th- Kulovana 14th short, 17th long
    18th- Vorobieva- 21st short, 14th long
    19th- Lepina- 17th short, 18th long
    20th- Otterson- 19th short, 21st long
    21st- Szwed- 24th short, 19th long
    22nd- Vassilieva- 20th short, 22nd long
    23rd- Czako- 23rd short, 23rd long



    Bonaly's overall placing isnt in fact that harsh in this case. It is only 1 spot behind Harding who she finished 1 spot behind in the actual event. Sato would have won the silver and Ito no medal though.

    For the 5 skaters who came from 25th to 29th in the short program Riley did have them in exactly the same position as they finished so she wasnt totally out of whack with the others (the 24th place finisher in the short who WD before the LP she had 22nd in the SP).
    Last edited by judgejudy27; 09-11-2013 at 10:25 PM.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    Once there was a rule in writing about "modest and dignified" costumes, she insisted on applying that rule.
    You would be surprised at the kind of photographs captured during competition before this rule. They were rather revealing.

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    Sato 1 and Bonaly 23

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    The commentators for both BBC and Scott Hamilton on CBS certainly took note of Riley giving Sato a 5.7 for technical merit for her Albertville performance:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYt0QKNCoqA 4:45-5:20
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYt0QKNCoqA 5:00

    If she had a triple lutz and triple flip back then she probably would have given her 6.0 on both sets of marks.
    I just watched the link to all the way to Lulu's marks in Albertville and it never ceases to amaze me how underscored she was during her career... Not just one 5.4 by two 5.4s for technical merit for that program? Were the judges serious? That was hands down the best long program technically in Albertville and deserved 5.8s and 5.9s. The fact that Kristi got 5.8s for a fall and a doubled sal really shows how much politics went on during this time.

  19. #19
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    Well I agree she was undermarked but realistically they could never have given her 5.8s and 5.9s with Yamaguchi, Harding, Ito, Bonaly, and Kerrigan all left to skate in the final flight, and all those apart from Kerrigan had even more technical difficulty planned than she had done. They had no idea how those would skate, and that the event would turn out as it did. Had she done a clean short and been in the final flight, and drawn middle or later on, she could have gotten much higher marks.

    Yamaguchi was way overmarked. The judges scores basically guaranteed her the gold medal even if Kerrigan and Ito both skated cleanly, despite that she hadnt skated that well. Side by side Chen could easily be given the same or a higher technical mark as Kristi.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    These would have been Riley's final results of the 92 Olympics:

    Gold- Yamaguchi, 1st short and long
    Silver- Sato, 4th short and 2nd long
    Bronze- Kerrigan, 2nd short and 5th long
    4th- Ito, 7th short, and 3rd long
    5th- Chen, 9th short, and 4th long
    6th- Chouinard, 10th short, and 6th long
    7th- Harding 11th short, 7th long
    8th- Bonaly 8th short, 10th long
    9th- Neske 13th short, 8th long
    10th- Rachkova 5th short, 12th long
    11th- Preston 16th short, 9th long
    12th- Torp-Lind 6th short, 16th long
    13th- Kiellmann 18th short, 11th long
    14th- Dimitrova 15th short, 13th long
    15th- Conway 12th short, 15th long
    16th- Hubert 3rd short, 20th long
    17th- Kulovana 14th short, 17th long
    18th- Vorobieva- 21st short, 14th long
    19th- Lepina- 17th short, 18th long
    20th- Otterson- 19th short, 21st long
    21st- Szwed- 24th short, 19th long
    22nd- Vassilieva- 20th short, 22nd long
    23rd- Czako- 23rd short, 23rd long



    Bonaly's overall placing isnt in fact that harsh in this case. It is only 1 spot behind Harding who she finished 1 spot behind in the actual event. Sato would have won the silver and Ito no medal though.

    For the 5 skaters who came from 25th to 29th in the short program Riley did have them in exactly the same position as they finished so she wasnt totally out of whack with the others (the 24th place finisher in the short who WD before the LP she had 22nd in the SP).
    I do admire Riley's fair ranking of Conway. Almost every judge in those days showed some national bias. It was very in character how she evaluated Joann Conway without favoritism.

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