Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 4567 LastLast
Results 101 to 120 of 127
  1. #101
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Kostner #1 Fan
    Posts
    453
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Should have absolutely won 93.

  2. #102
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    835
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Basic skating skills, which Surya didn't have, were a huge deal back then, and we actually counted it in the TM and AI, if it was really bad or really good. I never understood how she placed as high as she did much of the time, and would have long, frustrated chats with other judges over it. It wasn't a matter of preferring any given lady (or country) over Surya, it was just the fact that she could. Not. Skate.

    Stuff she she couldn't do:

    Edges: depth, control, line, posture, speed (while holding the edge), flow
    Jumps: flow in, flow out, amount of ice covered while in the air, cheats, lack of edge going in (which, at the time, was actually enough for a judge not to count the jump at all, if they desired)
    Artistry: awareness of music - ability to move in some way harmoniously with the music, choreography making sense and exhibiting basic skating skills - there was not the emphasis on complicated footwork or transitions then, but much attention was paid to skating true edges versus toe tapping, running down the ice, hops, etc.

    She did improve over the years, but it was too little, too late.

  3. #103

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    I Want to Go to There
    Posts
    9,801
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    35599
    Quote Originally Posted by Jasmar View Post
    Basic skating skills, which Surya didn't have, were a huge deal back then, and we actually counted it in the TM and AI, if it was really bad or really good. I never understood how she placed as high as she did much of the time, and would have long, frustrated chats with other judges over it. It wasn't a matter of preferring any given lady (or country) over Surya, it was just the fact that she could. Not. Skate.

    Stuff she she couldn't do:

    Edges: depth, control, line, posture, speed (while holding the edge), flow
    Jumps: flow in, flow out, amount of ice covered while in the air, cheats, lack of edge going in (which, at the time, was actually enough for a judge not to count the jump at all, if they desired)
    Artistry: awareness of music - ability to move in some way harmoniously with the music, choreography making sense and exhibiting basic skating skills - there was not the emphasis on complicated footwork or transitions then, but much attention was paid to skating true edges versus toe tapping, running down the ice, hops, etc.

    She did improve over the years, but it was too little, too late.
    Thanks for a 1990s judge's perspective on Bonaly's skating. The last sentence is a little poignant about how she was judged later on. It's a shame many felt that way as I really do believe her Nagano SP was undermarked. Maybe it's because I've fallen for the COP mindset of a 3toe/3toe being worth more than a 3Lutz combo, but I really do think she should have been at least 5th (I would have had her in 4th since I found her spins and jumps to be better than Lu Chen's) for that SP.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  4. #104
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,174
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Had Bonaly finished above Chen in the short program I also dont think Chen would have won the bronze over Butyrskaya even with Marias weak and nervy performance and Lus inspired one in the free skate. It would have affected the whole mentality of the judges going into the LP to have someone who really had no chance of a medal (Bonaly) ahead of you.

  5. #105

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    being a grumpy penguin
    Age
    31
    Posts
    2,908
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    5059
    deleted
    Last edited by escaflowne9282; 09-12-2013 at 05:55 AM.

  6. #106
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    11,168
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Maybe it's because I've fallen for the COP mindset of a 3toe/3toe being worth more than a 3Lutz combo, but I really do think she should have been at least 5th (I would have had her in 4th since I found her spins and jumps to be better than Lu Chen's) for that SP.
    Both had labourous jumps that night, and Bonaly's deathdrop was under-revved. While Chen was nothing more than an average spinner, the way Bonaly lost speed during her spins, steps and spirals was and still is a big no-no. There's no way she should have been above Chen on either mark.

    Aside from the one pop, Slutskaya's elements were clearly superior to Bonaly's. Both were clunky skaters but at least Slutskaya had and maintained more speed.

  7. #107
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Germany
    Age
    33
    Posts
    2,017
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Jasmar View Post
    Jumps: flow in, flow out, amount of ice covered while in the air, cheats, lack of edge going in (which, at the time, was actually enough for a judge not to count the jump at all, if they desired)

    In this thread we are talking specifically about Surya's performances at 1993, 1994 and 1995 Worlds and she had good flow out of lots of jumps in those competitions. As it was already said, she took off from a deep outside edge on the lutz (and had a curvy, non-telegraphed entry to it) and cheated very few jumps except for the 2nd parts of some of her very difficult triple-triple combinations which very few other ladies even attempted at the time.

  8. #108

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    24,950
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    91441
    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Both had labourous jumps that night, and Bonaly's deathdrop was under-revved. While Chen was nothing more than an average spinner, the way Bonaly lost speed during her spins, steps and spirals was and still is a big no-no. There's no way she should have been above Chen on either mark.

    Aside from the one pop, Slutskaya's elements were clearly superior to Bonaly's. Both were clunky skaters but at least Slutskaya had and maintained more speed.
    Are you talking about 1998?

  9. #109
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,174
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Both had labourous jumps that night, and Bonaly's deathdrop was under-revved. While Chen was nothing more than an average spinner, the way Bonaly lost speed during her spins, steps and spirals was and still is a big no-no. There's no way she should have been above Chen on either mark.

    Aside from the one pop, Slutskaya's elements were clearly superior to Bonaly's. Both were clunky skaters but at least Slutskaya had and maintained more speed.
    I disagree with you on Bonaly vs Chen atleast. Bonaly's combination jump, double axel, and three spin elements were all MUCH better than Chen's. Their other 3 elements were more or less the same that night. I would have had Bonaly way over Chen on the technical mark, probably by atleast .3, and had her ahead overall based on that.

    Slutskaya is an interesting case. Other than the double-double combination she was much superior to either Bonaly or Chen, but that is a big mistake vs their clean (well if Chen with all her shaky elements can be counted as a rough clean) skates that night.

    Chan was definitely overmarked in both the SP and LPs in Nagano though, and her bronze was a dubious result at best. It was almost a make up present for the judges for times she had been undermarked in the distant past. Bonaly was definitely screwed in the SP, as a result of being a perceived has been, and so came back with her back flip int he long.

  10. #110
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Germany
    Age
    33
    Posts
    2,017
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I disagree with you on Bonaly vs Chen atleast. Bonaly's combination jump, double axel, and three spin elements were all MUCH better than Chen's. Their other 3 elements were more or less the same that night. I would have had Bonaly way over Chen on the technical mark, probably by atleast .3, and had her ahead overall based on that.

    But didn't you notice that Bonaly's jumps, according to Marco, were "labourous" that night?

    ---

    Of course Bonaly deserved to be ahead of Chen in the SP in Nagano.

  11. #111
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    11,168
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    But didn't you notice that Bonaly's jumps, according to Marco, were "labourous" that night?
    Not just that night. Then again you always prefer labourous skating.

    Solo triple to Bonaly despite slightly scratchy landing because of immediate preceding steps, combination jump and 2axel about even because while Chen was tentative, Bonaly's setup was plain awkward and for some reason she didn't properly check her landings that night.

    Spins, spirals and steps and second mark all to Chen.
    Last edited by Marco; 09-13-2013 at 02:31 AM.

  12. #112
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    11,168
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    I disagree with you on Bonaly vs Chen atleast. Bonaly's combination jump, double axel, and three spin elements were all MUCH better than Chen's. Their other 3 elements were more or less the same that night. I would have had Bonaly way over Chen on the technical mark, probably by atleast .3, and had her ahead overall based on that.
    Did you even rewatch the performances? Bonaly's spins were slow and GOT slower. Her deathdrop was under-revved which was a deduction. Chen's spins maintained good speed even if they were simple. Good speed and stretch to flying camel and good arch to layback.

    Bonaly had very little actual content in her steps even though she seemed to be moving from end to end.

    Spirals looked about even in difficulty but Chen did exhibit better edges, variety and CONTROL. I had no idea why Bonaly had to fizzle out of all her spiral positions.

    Adding in their respective basics, speed, technique, having Chen ahead on the first mark is more than fair. I actually think this was Bonaly's best short program but quality wise she just wasn't there.

    My take:

    Chen 5.4/5.8 (deduction for hesitant 3toe)
    Slutskaya 5.2/5.6 (lower base mark by about 0.4-5)
    Bonaly 5.3/5.4 (deduction for deathdrop)

  13. #113
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,174
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Chen stalked her double axel forever, her jump combination was cheated and small, her combination spin was dreadfully bad (travelled badly, poor positions, not many rotations). No way would I have given her a 5.4 for elements or even a 5.8 for presentation for that performance. I actually agree with the judges who gave 5.1 or 5.2 for elements, that was about right, the 4.9 maybe a bit harsh but still more reasonable that the ridiculous 5.6 from the U.S judge.

    I know from past experience those who dont like Bonaly will not stand to any reason on her so I wont even bother going into her further. Although 5.3 and 5.4 isnt that out of line for that performance, but as I would give Chen something like 5.1 and 5.5 or 5.6, that would still put Bonaly in front of Chen.

  14. #114
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Two-foot skating = BAD
    Posts
    20,458
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Sasha'sSpins View Post
    This - in a nutshell. Imo, in the days of compulsory figures she would have been lucky if she placed top 20 at a Worlds or Olympics (in that portion of the competition) and top 10 or top 15 overall. Midori had far superior edge work and still struggled with the figures competition. I have no doubt that Bonaly would have been murdered by the judges in that segment.
    Under 6.0, Skating Skills were part of the technical mark.

    Therefore, Bonaly neither had the whole technical package, nor did she have the presentation.

  15. #115
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    82
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Bonaly did skate at the 89 and 90 Worlds when there was figured and did place top 10 in both. Although the fields were extremely weak in both as an old Claudia Leistner and Holly Cook were medalists at those Worlds.

  16. #116

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    being a grumpy penguin
    Age
    31
    Posts
    2,908
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    5059
    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Chan was definitely overmarked in both the SP and LPs in Nagano though, and her bronze was a dubious result at best. It was almost a make up present for the judges for times she had been undermarked in the distant past. Bonaly was definitely screwed in the SP, as a result of being a perceived has been, and so came back with her back flip int he long.
    This has to be the most un-ironic spelling mistake ever !!! I see someone'e ready for the upcoming season!!!

  17. #117
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    11,168
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Under 6.0, Skating Skills were part of the technical mark.

    Therefore, Bonaly neither had the whole technical package, nor did she have the presentation.
    Thank you.

  18. #118
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,174
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by escaflowne9282 View Post
    This has to be the most un-ironic spelling mistake ever !!! I see someone'e ready for the upcoming season!!!
    Haha so true. I didnt do that on purpose, I promise, maybe only subconsciously.

  19. #119

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Age
    48
    Posts
    17,931
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    33055
    Did Chan have a sex change?
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  20. #120
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    12,332
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    Did Chan have a sex change?
    Please, no, I love him as a male skater !

Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 4567 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •