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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    EM Swift of SI said a lot about how baiul was so good artistically for someone her age. Said Bonaly improved but no match for baiul. Hersh was mostly about how bad Kerrigan did but didn't say anything skepitical about baiul sweeping the artistic mark. Just 2 examples.

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...14/2/index.htm

    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...-championships

    The story was Kerrigans total collapse as she was the one who was supposed to win! Then because she bombed so bad it just wasn't much at issue who the winner was and if deserving because they skated better than Kerrigan!
    Thanks so much for the articles

  2. #42
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    1993. It was absurd how low her technical scores were compared to what the other skaters received for what they skated. And Surya had just beaten Oksana at Europeans. The judging was suspect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    There is an argument for 95 Worlds. Surya was nearly perfect in terms of jumps
    I wouldn't consider her FP "nearly perfect in terms of jumps" at all. I re-watched her skate just to make sure, and the toe in her triple flip-triple toe was badly cheated (over half rotation done on the ice), the salchow in her triple toe-half loop-triple salchow was also cheated, amd her second triple lutz was two-footed. That leaves her with 4 clean triples, less than Lu Chen's 5. And I know that cheats didn't matter as much during 6.0, but Surya's were bad enough that the CBC commentators were spotting them in real time.

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    That is what was remarkable about her 93 Worlds performance. ALL her jumps were completely clean which is very rare for her. Had she done that performance at the 94 Olympics she would have deserved to win there too (although even less likely the judges would have given it to her than at the 93 Worlds). I know marks are relative to your competition but how on earth were Bonaly's technical marks at the 95 and 94 Worlds much higher than the 93 Worlds which was by far her best technical performance of the three. Also how were her technical marks further ahead of Sato and Chen, than they were over Baiul in 93, when of the three Baiul was the furthest behind in technical caliber of performance on those 3 occasions. Really indicates the ridiculous judging, both at times in or against Surya, and in or against certain other skaters more than others too.

    I did love her 95 Worlds LP though btw and might have scored her a bit higher on the 2nd mark which might have given her the title over Chen, although her technical marks were generous and her short program marks were generous, so the final result was probably just all things considered.

  5. #45

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    For me she was the skater who on rewatching a competition I would fast forward through. Without knowing much about skating at the time, I just didn't like her and thought her programs were boring.

    With regards 1993, Baiul was a natural artistic and had that it factor that you cannot teach. Bonaly was hard work (in terms of her skating and having to watch her).

    Even someone like Lu Chen was much more appealing and attractive than Bonaly and should have been placed higher than her in 93.

    Bonaly was an example of a skater who thought she was much better than she was.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    For me she was the skater who on rewatching a competition I would fast forward through. Without knowing much about skating at the time, I just didn't like her and thought her programs were boring.

    With regards 1993, Baiul was a natural artistic and had that it factor that you cannot teach. Bonaly was hard work (in terms of her skating and having to watch her).

    Even someone like Lu Chen was much more appealing and attractive than Bonaly and should have been placed higher than her in 93.

    Bonaly was an example of a skater who thought she was much better than she was.

    Being "boring" or "attractive" or "natural artistic" or having the "it-factor"...that all has very little to do with how skaters should be judged by the judges.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    Being "boring" or "attractive" or "natural artistic" or having the "it-factor"...that all has very little to do with how skaters should be judged by the judges.
    And now as a judge, there are a number of other factors that I would consider why I still don't think she probably should have won a world title which include skating skills (which were dreadful), the way she used the music and the lack of quality in what she did which would all come into play in the components and presentation side of things. Back then skaters could win events based on their presentation too.
    Last edited by Aussie Willy; 09-09-2013 at 02:01 AM.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  8. #48
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    This thread is rehashed every year and the consensus is almost the same: 1993 was her best shot, 1994 was not even close (in favor of Sato), and that 1995 could have gone either way, but most feel Chen was a deserving champion.

    When it comes to 1993, I think this must be a case of judging past competitions by standards that just weren't being applied at that time. The triple-triple craze didn't come to the forefront of discussion until Slutskaya came roaring back to form in 2000 to challenge Kwan. Even Lipinski's 3r-3r and 3t-3s were rarely mentioned in the discussion of how she stacked up against Kwan. Looking back now, it is clear that Tara's technical merit was well ahead of Michelle's both years, but especially in Nagano, and yet, the thought at the time was that a clean Kwan had more than enough content to still win. It was Kwan's tentativeness that was, and is, consistently cited as the reason for her loss, not Lipinski's combinations.

    In 1993, very few ladies were even attempting a full set of triples, let alone 7 triples with triple-triple combinations or sequences. It's impossible to now try and guess what value the judges put on going that far to the technical extreme. Also remember that just 1 year prior, the best athletes were throwing triple axels, while the "artist" Yamaguchi was doing 3z-3t. It's very possible they didn't consider something like a 3t-3s sequence all that impressive, which was the most difficult thing Surya attempted in Prague.

    Also, attempts at 7 triples were a fairly new trend. Yes, that became a standard later in the decade and the top ladies were expected to complete 7, with 2 lutzes preferably, but that just wasn't the norm in 1993. So, Oksana, showing the full set of triples, and doing them all better in terms of quality, than Surya, may not have been judged as being all that inferior to Surya.

    This was also a time when the SP was known as the technical program and the professional scene was at its peak with its technical + artistic program format. There were also no "well balanced program guidelines." In any case, while it may have been expected, it might not have been that big of a deal for a LP to be missing spins, combos and footwork. Baiul demonstrated that she could complete those elements in her technical program, whereas her LP showcased her other strengths which were landing the other set of triples and interpreting music. I don't think for a minute that someone as savvy as Zmievskaya would've let her go out there with a program that didn't fit the rules/standards of the time, when she was more than capable of doing all of those elements. I just truly don't think it was that and big of a deal, and the commentary of the events supports that- Bezic mentions the lack of combos (likely in comparison to Bonaly), but we never hear criticism of her spins, the lack of footwork, etc. at any point during her career.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    Being "boring" or "attractive" or "natural artistic" or having the "it-factor"...that all has very little to do with how skaters should be judged by the judges.
    But none the less, it was very important under the 6.0 system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    With regards 1993, Baiul was a natural artistic and had that it factor that you cannot teach.
    Yes, but field moves beyond picking up one's feet to the rhythm of the music can be taught. To bad nobody taught Oksana
    Last edited by bardtoob; 09-09-2013 at 06:58 AM.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    Yes, but field moves beyond picking up one's feet to the rhythm of the music can be taught. To bad nobody taught Oksana
    Yeah. To drag up a favorite dead horse of mine (take that dead horse! and that! and that!)

    Baiul and Bonaly in 1993 were the poster children for why simply dumping figures wa not the very best idea the ISU ever had. I think both would have benefitted enormously from (in Bonaly's case) having to seriously work at them or (in Baiul's case) having to learn them (and different turns) in the first place.

    Bonaly was showing some real progress in 1993 and the judges not recognizing that probably had a lot to do with her backsliding in the next few years. Why should she believe the CW about what was wrong with her skating when the judges seemed so eager to promote someone with serious gaps in her skills?

    Baiul had a _huge_ store of natural talent but her skating skills (in her short competetive career) were not especially great. But to paraphrase a judge at the time : Who the hell was looking at her feet?

  11. #51

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    They both would have to learn figures. Figures were dropped out of competition in 1990. Bonaly would have had to do them as Junior competitor. I daresay Baiul probably did them early on but by the time she was competing at Senior level she would have dropped them.

    Anyone know more about figures for lower levels back then?
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke View Post
    Yeah. To drag up a favorite dead horse of mine (take that dead horse! and that! and that!)
    Having rewatched programs for both the Chen Lu thread and Bonaly thread, it is glaringly obvious that Lulu's LP was constructed significantly better than Oksana's and Surya's programs, and I don't think Oksana or Surya could have replicated what Lulu was doing. Of course, Oksana was a better spinner and Surya was a better jumper, but Lulu was the better skater.

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    They both would have to learn figures. Figures were dropped out of competition in 1990. Bonaly would have had to do them as Junior competitor. I daresay Baiul probably did them early on but by the time she was competing at Senior level she would have dropped them.

    Anyone know more about figures for lower levels back then?
    You're going to love this

    Here is footage of Surya doing figures at the senior level at 1989 Euros captured on video because VANESSA RILEY DID NOT LIKE HER COSTUME

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...CupWBess#t=154
    Last edited by bardtoob; 09-09-2013 at 04:23 PM.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    They both would have to learn figures. Figures were dropped out of competition in 1990. Bonaly would have had to do them as Junior competitor. I daresay Baiul probably did them early on but by the time she was competing at Senior level she would have dropped them.
    Anyone know more about figures for lower levels back then?
    Bonaly did do them through 1990 (horribly by all accounts but she did them) but she knew they were on the way out and probably decided to get horrible marks for a couple of years and make her big move starting in 1991. I think she would have been a very different skater had she had to take them seriously.

    Baiul almost certainly did not do them. The USSR (or so I've read) did not have any kind of figure testing system, skaters mostly learned through MITF and only practiced the figures needed for competition. Since the decision to dump figures was made in the summer of 1988 and there was certainly no idea that Baiul would be competing internationally before 1991 she most certainly did not receive any training in them as no one around her would have thought she'd ever need them.

  15. #55
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    I agree that looking back, Chen had by far the best programs and skates in 1993. I think her programs did her no justice... Her SP was dreadful, and the LP, while intricate, didn't show off her strengths IMO. Her Claire de Lune the following year showed she was already capable of being incredibly lyrical. I think a softer LP would've benefitted her. The Nausicaa program was a bit heavy and seemed to weigh her down. It almost made her seem a lot older than she was... things that shouldn't have mattered, of course, but hard to believe she was just a year older than the energetic Baiul.

    In terms of skating skills, can someone point me to specific examples of skaters other than Lu Chen who were showing examples of superior skating skills in their actual competitive programs? I am genuinely curious.

    I think Oksana's speed, flexibility, and edge work were all more than adequate and showcased fine skating skills, and her footwork and spirals, while not extraordinary, as shown in her technical programs, were more than adequate per the standards of the time.

    Had there been a MITF requirement, for example, I am sure she would've included one and done it quite well.

    I also highly doubt Bonaly slacked off following Baiul's win in 1993. If anything, it would've shown that she still had a ton of work to do, and she continued to improve, especially choreographically, all the way up until 1998.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    I don't think Oksana or Surya could have replicated what Lulu was doing. ...Lulu was the better skater.
    I basically agree.

  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    You're going to love this

    Here is footage of Surya doing figures at the senior level at 1989 Euros captured on video because VANESSA RILEY DID LIKE HER COSTUME

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...CupWBess#t=154
    Thanks for posting the clip. I have never seen Vanessa Riley interviewed. She always looked much older when they showed her on the judging panel. Maybe she was wearing glasses.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by PairSk8Fan View Post
    1993. It was absurd how low her technical scores were compared to what the other skaters received for what they skated. And Surya had just beaten Oksana at Europeans. The judging was suspect.
    Yes, as others have said, her reaction in 1994 was probably as much in reaction to the 93 result as it was to the 94 result. It was a meltdown caused by the cumulative effect of both decisions.

    For years, all the wonderful qualities Sato had went unrewarded. Then all of a sudden, she was finally marked appropriately, more or less. The upending of all the unwritten rules and the abandonment of "the way things are done" must have felt like a massive slap in the face. It also was awkward, because Sato's marks were totally defensible on merit, and yet based on how everything had happened in the previous 4 years, still unfair. Surya still shouldn't have done what she did at the podium, but I always found her frustration very understandable.

    Her sp and her exhibition in '94 were lovely.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

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    Sato was not undermarked before the 94 Worlds. She either didn't have a triple lutz or triple flip yet (pre 94 season) or blew it (short program at the Games).

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    Quote Originally Posted by KimGOAT View Post
    Markova also could have easily won since she was ahead of Chen and Bonaly after the SP, and become first Russian to win Worlds instead before the fugly Slutskaya became the first to do it.
    Butyrskaya was the first to win World's, in 1999. Slutskaya didn't win until 2002.

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