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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Did you even rewatch the performances? Bonaly's spins were slow and GOT slower. Her deathdrop was under-revved which was a deduction. Chen's spins maintained good speed even if they were simple. Good speed and stretch to flying camel and good arch to layback.

    Bonaly had very little actual content in her steps even though she seemed to be moving from end to end.

    Spirals looked about even in difficulty but Chen did exhibit better edges, variety and CONTROL. I had no idea why Bonaly had to fizzle out of all her spiral positions.

    Adding in their respective basics, speed, technique, having Chen ahead on the first mark is more than fair. I actually think this was Bonaly's best short program but quality wise she just wasn't there.

    My take:

    Chen 5.4/5.8 (deduction for hesitant 3toe)
    Slutskaya 5.2/5.6 (lower base mark by about 0.4-5)
    Bonaly 5.3/5.4 (deduction for deathdrop)
    I dunno...I think Bonaly had better steps. Maybe it's because I didn't like that SP, but I think 5.8 is high for Chen's SP. That's the presentation mark I would have given Butryskaya and Lipinski and they were loads better than Chen that night.

    You're right about Bonaly's deathdrop deserving a deduction. However, Chen's combination spin was simply a huge mess. Lack of control, bad positions on her back spins, and just not attractive. Even if Bonaly's combo spin was a bit slow, she had nice variety of positions and her back catchfoot spin actually gained some speed. I think you were sort of nitpicky about Bonaly's Salchow because although it wasn't the smoothest landing, it was still clean with some good run-out. If you're going to be that nitpicky then Chen's Lutz should also give you pause since it seemed short although it had a beautiful outside edge and height. Also, her double axel had just as good of a landing as Bonaly's Salchow. Bonaly's double axel was better, IMO. Spirals, both were pretty blah to me. Chen had more personality but she really had some messy positions. Bonaly held her positions better but the edges weren't as good. However, I liked Bonaly's transitions in-between her spirals.

    Presentation-wise, I actually thought Bonaly was way more "on" and got the music more than Chen who seemed to be trying hard to sell that routine but it just wasn't convincing.

    Slutskaya is an interesting case because technically, she was far superior to Bonaly and Chen, but that double/double combo should be at least a 0.4 off of her base mark (were double combinations an actual deduction or just lowering of the base mark in 1998?). I will say that her double axel really was a thing of beauty. Tano axel with excellent control out of it. Also, that SP was horrific in terms of music and presentation, IMO. Much lower than what Slute was capable of.

    I don't really care about whether Bonaly or Chen should have been higher, but I do think Bonaly should have been higher than Slute who on her average days is a better skater than Bonaly on her good days. However, that double/double combination was a major mistake on a required element, and back then, the SPs were brutal on missed elements even when other elements did make up for mistakes (as we've seen top skaters who made mistakes in the SP score higher than clean skats by lower-ranked skaters under 6.0).

    I would have scored it this way:

    5.4/5.6 - Bonaly
    5.3/5.6 - Chen
    5.3/5.4 - Slutskaya
    Last edited by VIETgrlTerifa; 09-15-2013 at 04:08 AM.
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  2. #122
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    I actually thought Slutskaya's short program was one of her best pre transformation (2000) programs. It was charming, cute, playful, and suited her at the time. It also did well to hide her complete lack of style and aesthetics at the time. Still 6th was the obvious correct placement for her that night. The judges compensated for some of the complaints over the SP placements by undermarking her LP which clearly should have been 3rd over Maria's disaester, and Lu's very strong for her at that point, but still technically inferior program.

    There was no mandatory deduction for a double-double combination or even a double jump out of footwork. It was just commonly accepted any skater who hoped for a respectable placing should be attempting a triple. The skaters often probably lost more with it just being a judges call on the base score than had there been a mandatory deduction in place. Most of Slutskaya's technical scores were lower than 5.3, alot of 4.8s and 5.0s even, but Bonaly's marks being so low on both sets, and Slutskaya's very high presentation scores (lots of 5.7s) put her over Bonaly. What is funny is several of the same judges who gave her 5.7 for presentation for her short with a major miscue gave her only 5.6 for presentation for her much stronger long program which cost her the bronze.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I dunno...I think Bonaly had better steps. Maybe it's because I didn't like that SP, but I think 5.8 is high for Chen's SP. That's the presentation mark I would have given Butryskaya and Lipinski and they were loads better than Chen that night.
    I would have given 5.8 to Chen and Butyrskaya but only 5.7 to Lipinski.

    You're right about Bonaly's deathdrop deserving a deduction. However, Chen's combination spin was simply a huge mess. Lack of control, bad positions on her back spins, and just not attractive. Even if Bonaly's combo spin was a bit slow, she had nice variety of positions and her back catchfoot spin actually gained some speed.
    I love her back crossfoot spin. But then you are right about the loss of centering - but given the loss of speed and generally un-precise positions by Bonaly, I don't think Bonaly had any advantage at all. I much prefer Chen's much cleaner and faster combination, even with one flaw on the centering. In any event there's no way Bonaly had a much better combo spin (or better overall spins) as someone suggested.

    Spirals, both were pretty blah to me. Chen had more personality but she really had some messy positions. Bonaly held her positions better but the edges weren't as good. However, I liked Bonaly's transitions in-between her spirals.
    Honestly I don't find her positions messy at all. I feel she knew exactly what position she wanted to achieve and they were all clean and went perfectly with the music. Chen also showed much better variety of positions and edges. Not only were Bonaly's edges poorer, the overall flow of the sequence was visibly worse.

    Presentation-wise, I actually thought Bonaly was way more "on" and got the music more than Chen who seemed to be trying hard to sell that routine but it just wasn't convincing.
    I find Chen to have displayed a deeper understanding of the mood and beat of the music and to have interpreted it in a much more mature and polished manner, with her whole body and with bodily movements and edge work. Bonaly's was much more superficial and mostly with her arms.

    I would have scored it this way:

    5.4/5.6 - Bonaly
    5.3/5.6 - Chen
    5.3/5.4 - Slutskaya
    I can live with that placement but to have Chen and Bonaly on par on the second mark hurts my soul. All in all, thanks for a wonderfully intellectual discussion.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    What is funny is several of the same judges who gave her 5.7 for presentation for her short with a major miscue gave her only 5.6 for presentation for her much stronger long program which cost her the bronze.
    Getting totally off topic here, but Slutskaya's LP was hideous and was Russian funeral folk (she at least had fun with it at Worlds, which made quite a difference). So even while she clearly had the third strongest tech, presentation dragged her down.

    Slutskaya's SP, like you said, hid her weaknesses really well and the elements were all so strong (obv aside from the combo). It was easily the best choreographed program she had to that point. It's too bad she NEVER skated it cleanly that entire season. If she could have landed that combo, she should have finished at least 2nd, and maybe even 1st. Of course she would still tumble after the LP.

  5. #125
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    Russian funeral folk. I got a good laugh out of that, hehe.

  6. #126

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    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  7. #127
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    It is funny Bonaly seems to think she was more robbed at the 94 Worlds than 93 and 95. Doesnt everyone agree of the 3 competitions her 94 performance was her weakest, much worse than 93, and worse as well than 95. So does she think she was the most robbed since she considers Yuka much weaker than Oksana and Lu, despite that Yuka in 94 landed more triples than Oksana in 93 and Lu in 95 did.

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