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  1. #21
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    Yet she had only 4 clean triples, a jump she had to put her hand down on to barely stop from falling, a jump so badly cheated it was a Hughes like 2.2 rotations, and another cheated/two footed jump, weaker spins than Sato, no footwork at all, and an incredibly slow performance. Sato was virtually clean, a doubled triple toe is not a major mistake, and apart from the 1 triple-triple combo Bonaly did everything Sato did was better quality that night. Sato should have probably beaten her even on the technical mark and I would have had the presentation mark about .3 or .4 apart as a few judges did. No way should Bonaly have won more than maybe 1 judge.

  2. #22

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    I am not even just including the 3/3 but the whole sequence 3/1/3/2! That meant something in 6.0!

  3. #23
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    Actually consdering a 3/1/3 sequence is easier than a true 3-3 combination, adding the double toe at the end would only make her combination about equal in difficulty to her triple salchow-triple toe combination from Europeans. Either way not enough to overcome an otherwise mediocre performance with even major jumping errors.

  4. #24
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    In 1994, Bonaly cheated her 2 lutzes by about 1/8 (I saw no two-foot), she had a clean triple flip (Sato's was wonky), a difficult 3-3-2 sequence and 2 very good double axels from difficult entries. Sato had no difficult jump combination and no triple toe (Bonaly no loop). There's no question for me that Bonaly did deserve the higher technical marks, just like Sato did deserve higher marks for presentation.

    1993 was off course a no-brainer. Bonaly should have beaten Baiul by 9:0 judges.

    In 1995 I liked Bonaly's program a lot and probably would have given her the win over Chen because of her much more difficult program, but I guess the higher 2nd mark for Chen wasn't wrong. I think it was a 5:4 split for Chen. Eeek.

  5. #25
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    In 1993, was Oksana's win deemed controversial?

    I'm curious, because I watched the vids, and thoughts Surya deserved the title that year and so does it seem most posters on this thread, but what was the prevailing sentiment/commentary back in 93?

  6. #26
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    It's amazing to me that Bonaly, Chen, Baiul, and Sato reused their LPs from 1993 in 1994.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  7. #27

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    None. I'm sorry if that comes across as too harsh, but honestly she's the perfect example of why at least attempting to display some artistry and musicality matters as much as having excellent technique. I don't care if she could have done quintuples jumps, her complete lack of line, flow and basic skating skills mean she just cannot be called a great skater. These things are not the icing on the cake, they are the foundation of the sport. She was deservedly among the top skaters for her athletic prowess, but World Champ? No. She would have made an excellent gymnast, I never quite got why she switched from this sport.
    On a side note, her awful mother did her a lot of harm with her aggressive, resentful attitude, I felt sorry for Surya to have to deal with the fallout from that as well. I've no idea if/how much her antics leaked out in the foreign press but in France it really harmed Surya's public perception.
    Touching the void.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by lulu View Post
    In 1993, was Oksana's win deemed controversial?
    At the time, no it wasnt. It has only become in hindsight. At the time none of the experts anyway questioned the result, although you get the impression they would have accepted Bonaly and maybe even Chen winning as well, they had no problem with Baiul's win. They even went on ad nauseum about what a special skater she was, how she was the best thing to happen in womens skating in over a decade, etc....

    The only win over Baiul's that was controversial at the time was the 94 Olympic one. Some thought her defeat to Bonaly at the 94 Europeans was controversial at the time as well.

  9. #29
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    93 - yes, absolutely, that lp was one of the worst judged events ever (podium should have been bonaly, chen, baiul; one could argue for chen in first but baiul? no way)

    94 - kind of close, but..... no (and of course the tantrum was a result of cumulative anger, esp after 93)

    95 - no

    And I thought the 93 ladies lp was controversial (and horribly judged) at the time, but there was no internet to allow me to vent my spleen about it.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primorskaya View Post
    None. I'm sorry if that comes across as too harsh, but honestly she's the perfect example of why at least attempting to display some artistry and musicality matters as much as having excellent technique. I don't care if she could have done quintuples jumps, her complete lack of line, flow and basic skating skills mean she just cannot be called a great skater. These things are not the icing on the cake, they are the foundation of the sport. She was deservedly among the top skaters for her athletic prowess, but World Champ? No. She would have made an excellent gymnast, I never quite got why she switched from this sport.
    I agree, and it wasn't like she had great jump technique. She muscled through all her jumps.

  11. #31
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    I personally think she should've won the '93 World Crown. Those were the cleanest, most inspired performances she'd ever given.

    I agree with Judgejudy, because I remember the commentators even from the US at '93 Worlds gushing forever about the heretofore unknown Baiul, her tragic backstory, her presence on the ice, etc.

    Sometimes I wonder though if Baiul won because TPTB didn't think Bonaly in any way deserved a world championship due to her complete inability to fit into the classic Ice Princess box

  12. #32
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    Did Bonaly deserve any of of the 93, 94 and 95 worlds?

    No, in my opinion. Her skating looked horrible with no flow at all. She was a good jumper.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaana View Post
    Did Bonaly deserve any of of the 93, 94 and 95 worlds?

    No, in my opinion. Her skating looked horrible with no flow at all. She was a good jumper.
    Surprinsingly, not in 1993. I find her 1993 Worlds programs to be skated with better flow than 1994 and 1995, and more polished.

  14. #34
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    Perhaps TPTB were responding to her poor skating skills and as Marco said, the jumps were muscled through, although at times extremely impressive. But do you really want to encourage jumps from a standstill?

  15. #35
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    ^ In her later years before she started to fizzle out, her jumps were no longer done from a standstill and used to have some decent flow out of them. It was just in some of those earlier years that they were like that.

    Either way, she definitely deserved the 93 title. 94 title, no. Her going on the podium and doing that was ridiculous because Sato outskated her even in technical terms. But yes, I think she was basically just protesting all the c*** that had happened to her those past two seasons. There is an argument for 95 Worlds. Surya was nearly perfect in terms of jumps, but Lulu also had everything (besides a doubled lutz). But of course, in the end, the artistic mark is the tie breaker in the LP, so the judges went with Lulu. And wasn't Surya also 4th after a terrible SP?

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    ^ In her later years before she started to fizzle out, her jumps were no longer done from a standstill and used to have some decent flow out of them. It was just in some of those earlier years that they were like that.
    At 1989 Worlds, her skating skills were like an 11 year old skater that had been skating since she was 7 or 8, and by the 1998 Olympics, her skating skills were like a mature skaters. However, her ruptured achilles tendon in 1996 really ended any hope of anything beyond a consistent 3F, although she could still do 3T-3T. I do think she should have been 3rd or 4th in the SP at Nagano, but it was clear she would not be able to maintain that position in the LP.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 09-08-2013 at 08:00 PM.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    At the time, no it wasnt. It has only become in hindsight. At the time none of the experts anyway questioned the result, although you get the impression they would have accepted Bonaly and maybe even Chen winning as well, they had no problem with Baiul's win. They even went on ad nauseum about what a special skater she was, how she was the best thing to happen in womens skating in over a decade, etc....

    The only win over Baiul's that was controversial at the time was the 94 Olympic one. Some thought her defeat to Bonaly at the 94 Europeans was controversial at the time as well.
    Thanks for the info.

  18. #38

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    EM Swift of SI said a lot about how baiul was so good artistically for someone her age. Said Bonaly improved but no match for baiul. Hersh was mostly about how bad Kerrigan did but didn't say anything skepitical about baiul sweeping the artistic mark. Just 2 examples.

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...14/2/index.htm

    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...-championships

    The story was Kerrigans total collapse as she was the one who was supposed to win! Then because she bombed so bad it just wasn't much at issue who the winner was and if deserving because they skated better than Kerrigan!

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    She needed to win in 1994. Shame that she accepted the medal.
    I agree it is a shame too bad she accepted the medal. If she had refused to then the silver could have gone to Szewcenko and the bronze to Kiellmann which would have been the right result anyway. Bonaly's sucky skate that night didnt deserve any medal, let alone the gold. Then Bonaly also probably would have been banned from ISU skating forever for refusing to show up for a Worlds medal ceremony, and Bobek and Kwan would have gotten the silver and bronze at next years Worlds, where Bonaly was gifted another silver. No harm, wouldnt be missed, and good riddance. So like you I wish she had just not taken the medal at all.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I agree, and it wasn't like she had great jump technique. She muscled through all her jumps.
    Her jumps did not get much height, had very bad and improper technique, and entered and exited with no flow. It is a myth she was ever some great jumper. She could pull around and stand up alot of hard jumps, will give her that, but that doesnt make a great jumper.

    She did maybe deserve the 93 World title, but to talk about 94 or even 95 is a joke, and shows how delusional she and her "team" had gotten to her abilities by then.

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