View Poll Results: Which lady had it toughest for competition and field

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  • Ito

    20 21.98%
  • Kwan

    21 23.08%
  • Slutskaya

    21 23.08%
  • Kim

    39 42.86%
  • Asada

    29 31.87%
  • Yamaguchi

    19 20.88%
  • Witt

    18 19.78%
  • Lynn

    16 17.58%
  • Baiul

    6 6.59%
  • Kerrigan

    6 6.59%
  • Chen

    21 23.08%
  • Ando

    12 13.19%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #1
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    Toughest competition ever- ladies

    Which lady has had the toughest and strongest overall competition and field to face throughout their career.

  2. #2
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    Witt and Yamaguchi.
    Witt had a deep field to beat in 86-88, many of whom were better skaters than she (although she was the best competitor). Yamaguchi had to face Ito and Harding who were the best technical skaters for women of all time, yet she was able to win over them based on her consistency at the big competitions.

  3. #3
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    I wouldnt really say Witt had that tough of competition. I would say she faced a very deep field with many excellent skaters, but it lacked in true greats. Other than Witt herself, and Ito who was not any contender in major events due to figures, there wasnt another skater around then I would classify as an all time great as much as I love Thomas and Kadavy.

  4. #4
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    Agreed about Ito but, I would say Thomas and Manley were on par or better than Witt. Certainly they were better technical skaters than Witt.

    Also earlier in her career (pre 1985) she had to face Zayak and Sumners who were also on par with Witt (Again Zayak being a better jumper).

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lnt175 View Post
    Agreed about Ito but, I would say Thomas and Manley were on par or better than Witt. Certainly they were better technical skaters than Witt.

    Also earlier in her career (pre 1985) she had to face Zayak and Sumners who were also on par with Witt (Again Zayak being a better jumper).
    While on the surface that makes sense, still today none of those are probably even considered a top 25 skater all time (aside from Witt and Ito who are possibly top 5, and Ito wasnt a competitive factor for Witt as said earlier). So I guess it depends how one defines strong competition. For me facing atleast one other all time great is imperative. Yamaguchi faced 2 of the 3 or 4 best jumpers ever in Ito and Harding. Ito faced Witt and Yamaguchi, two all time greats. Kim and Asada faced one another. Kwan faced Slutskaya who is considered an all time great as well. Witt faced a deep field but that didnt include someone today who is remembered as an all time great.

  6. #6
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    There's a lot of overlap in years here when you talk about entire careers, and it's kind of anachronistic to compare different eras. If I had the time, I might consider who had to compete at worlds against the greatest number of prior world medalists. I would qualify that the prior world medalist not be someone who had fallen out of top six contention. For example, Meissner in 2008 was too out of contention to be considered additional competition for Mao or Yuna.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    There's a lot of overlap in years here when you talk about entire careers, and it's kind of anachronistic to compare different eras. If I had the time, I might consider who had to compete at worlds against the greatest number of prior world medalists. I would qualify that the prior world medalist not be someone who had fallen out of top six contention. For example, Meissner in 2008 was too out of contention to be considered additional competition for Mao or Yuna.
    OK I will try this using your criteria. Let me know how you think I do:

    ,
    Kwan- Chen (95, 96, 98 Olympics), Bonaly (95 and 96), Ito (96), Szewcenko (96, 98 Worlds), Lipinski (98 Olympics), Gusmeroli (99, 2000), Butyrskaya (99, 2000, 2001, 2002 Olympics), Slutskaya (97, 98 (2), 2000, 2001, 2002 (2), 2005), Hughes (2002 Olympics), Suguri (2003, 2004, 2005), Arakawa (2005), Cohen (2005 Worlds). 29 total out of 13 World/Olympics. Average of 2.2 per event.

    Kim- Asada (2008, 2009, 2010 (2), 2011, 2013), Ando (2008, 2009, 2010 (2), 2011), Kostner (2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 Worlds, 2011, 2013), Rochette (2010 Olympics), Meissner (2007), Suzuki (2013). 20 total out of 7 World/Olympics. Average of 2.9 per event.

    Asada- Kim (2008, 2009, 2010 (2), 2011, 2013), Ando (2009, 2010 (2), 2011), Kostner (2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 Olympics, 2011, 2012, 2013), Rochette (2010 Olympics), Meissner (2007), Suzuki (2013). 20 out of 8 Worlds/Olympics. Average of 2.5 per event

    Witt- Sumners (1984 Olympics), Zayak (1982, 1983, 1984 (2) ), Leistner (1985, 1986, 1987, 1988 (2) ), Vodorezova (1984 Olympics), Ivanova (1984 Worlds, 1985, 1986, 1987), Kadavy (1988 (2) ), Manley (1988 Worlds), Kristofics Binder (1982), Chin (1986). 20 out of 9 Worlds/Olympics. Average of 2.2 per event

    Yamaguchi- Ito (1990, 1991, 1992 Olympics), Kerrigan (1992 (2) ), Harding (1992 (2) ), Trenary (1990), Leistner (1989). 9 out of 5 Worlds/Olympics. Average of 1.8 per event, or 2 if we exclude the 89 Worlds.

    Ito- Witt (1987, 1988 (2) ), Thomas (1987, 1988 (2) ), Kadavy (1988 (2) ), Ivanova (1987), Yamaguchi (1992 Olympics), Harding (1992 Olympics), Kerrigan (1992 Olympics), Leistner (1987, 1988 (2), 1989), Trenary (1990), Manley (1988 Worlds), 18 in 7 World/Olympic events. Average of 2.6 per event.

    Slutskaya- Kwan (96, 97, 98 (2), 2000, 2001, 2002 (2), 2005), Arakawa (2005 Worlds, 2006 Olympics), Suguri (2005, 2006 Olympics), Chen (96, 98 Olympics), Lipinski (98 Olympics), Butyrskaya (2000, 2001, 2002 Olympics), Cohen (2005, 2006 Olympics), Ito (1996 Worlds), Szewcenko (96, 98 Worlds), Bonaly (96), Hughes (2002 Olympics), Gusmeroli (2000). 27 in 10 World/Olympic events. Average of 2.7 per event.

    Chen- Yamaguchi (92 (2) ), Kerrigan (92 (2), 93, 94 Olympics), Bonaly (94 Olympics, 95 Worlds, 96 Worlds), Kwan (98 Olympics), Slutskaya (98 Olympics), Ito (92 Olympics, 96 Worlds), Baiul (94 Olympics), Szewcenko (96 Worlds), Gusmeroli (98 Olympics). 16 in 7 World/Olympic events. Average of 2.3 per event.


    I didnt count years like the 1980 or 1981 Worlds for Witt, 1984 and 1986 Worlds for Ito, or the 1994 Worlds for Kwan as they themselves were not even top 6 contenders yet. I did count for Slutskaya for the 95 and 2004 Worlds as she was not a top 6 contender those years. I did not count the 91 or 97 Worlds for Chen for the same reason.

    I also discounted skaters who were out of top 6 contention IMO by that point, while counting those who I believe were. For instance I counted Ito (7th 96 Worlds), Suzuki (11th 2013 Worlds), Szewcenko (10th 98 Worlds), Arakawa (9th at 2005 Worlds), Kostner (11th at 2003 Worlds), Ando (WD during LP, 2008 Worlds), Zayak (WD after figures, 83 Worlds) as there are valid reasons to consider them top 6 contenders those years, mostly based on other performances and results they had done that season internationally. I did not count Bobek (97 Worlds, 98 Olympics), Leistner (84 Olympics), Leonova (2013 Worlds), Kostner (2010 Olympics), Gusmeroli (2001 and beyond), Sokolova (any year as she was never a top 6 contender again after her World silver), Soldatova (same as Sokolova), Szewcenko (95 Worlds) as there arent any even semi valid reasons based on either their horrific showings at those events or/and lack of anything they had done recently to consider them top 6 contenders those years or at those events.

    It does show one flaw of using that method however. For instance Leistner at the 89 Worlds is counted as competition for someone since she was both a strong contender there and a "former" World medalist, while Ito who isnt a former World medalist is not. Yet who was tougher competition to face at the 89 World, Leistner or Ito, LOL! Same thing, Manley is not credited for having to face at the 88 Olympics since she isnt a "former" World medalist yet, while someone like Leistner would be. You werent facing a "former" World medalist with Arakawa at the 2004 Worlds. You werent facing a "former" World medalist with Lipinski at the 97 Worlds. And so on.


    Interesting to see Kristi comes last using this criteria however.

  8. #8
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    Ito did have to face some of the toughest competition as you mentioned, and she also had to straddle the two eras of figures and post figures.

    Chen also had to face tough competition even if it doesn't show in that chart you did. By the time Chen was at her peak in the 95-96 season she had to face a just starting to peak Kwan, Slutskaya and a comback by Chouinard.

  9. #9
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    Chen always had it fairly tough, especialy coming from her vantage point of mostly being pigeoned as a bronze contender without strong federation or judges support like her competitors. As a youngster coming up she had to try to break into the medals against Yamaguchi, Ito, Kerrigan, Bonaly, Harding, all older and more established stars. Then she faced Baiul, Kerrigan, Bonaly, Sato, all at their best, and all arguably more favored by judges than she was. Then she faced Bobek, Kwan, Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, and continued facing Bonaly, and at the end of her career faced all those plus Lipinski as well. Any medal of any color she ever won was hard fought and earned, and skated very well for.

  10. #10
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    I voted for Kwan, since it seems like once she got one competitor out of the way and it looked like she'd win another Olympics, someone else would come along who could beat her. Granted, her main rivals were Chen, Lipinski, and Slutskaya, and only one of those managed to actually win an Olympics.

  11. #11
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    Ladies 1998 Olympics was a very tough competition. A lot of clean, or almost clean performances. A fantastic top 2.

  12. #12

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    How anyone could say Kim, when everyone always says she is unbeatable, is beyond me.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyWarhol View Post
    How anyone could say Kim, when everyone always says she is unbeatable, is beyond me.
    Didn't you know that Yuna has to win every poll? She's the new Kween. The question doesn't matter as long as she wins the polls and competitions

  14. #14
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    I voted for Kwan.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laney View Post
    Didn't you know that Yuna has to win every poll? She's the new Kween. The question doesn't matter as long as she wins the polls and competitions
    My thoughts exactly. These days Yu na wins every poll, no matter what the poll is about (unless it's a negative poll).

  16. #16
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    How is it possible for Kim or Asada to have had tougher competition than Ando, yet Ando is at the bottom of this poll and Kim at the top. Ando faced all the same field as Kim or Asada except Ando faced Kim and Asada, while Kim and Asada faced the other plus Ando. Kim and Asada cant face herself, they face Ando instead, while Ando faces both Asada and Kim. So there is no way Kim or Asada had tougher competition than Ando. To pick Kim and Asada over Ando as having tougher competition is to say Ando is a better skater than Asada and Kim basically.

  17. #17
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    Yes the results make no sense. If Kim is the best skater of this era, how do people who are not as good as her have less tough competition even though they are competing against her? LOL.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimGOAT View Post
    How is it possible for Kim or Asada to have had tougher competition than Ando, yet Ando is at the bottom of this poll and Kim at the top. Ando faced all the same field as Kim or Asada except Ando faced Kim and Asada, while Kim and Asada faced the other plus Ando. Kim and Asada cant face herself, they face Ando instead, while Ando faces both Asada and Kim. So there is no way Kim or Asada had tougher competition than Ando. To pick Kim and Asada over Ando as having tougher competition is to say Ando is a better skater than Asada and Kim basically.
    For many reasons, including the ones you mention, this is a poorly constructed poll, as it is difficult to make clear differentiations. This is reflected in the remarkably even distribution of the votes.

  19. #19
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    Kostner.

    her competitors : Kwan, Slutskaya, Cohen, Arakawa, Kim, Asada, Rochette, Ando etc.
    Kostner's WC results : 10th(03') - 5th(04') - 3rd(05') - 12th(06') - 6th(07') - 2nd(08') - 12th(09') - 6th(10') - 3rd(11') - 1st(12') - 2nd(13')
    Last edited by t.mann; 09-07-2013 at 07:49 AM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by t.mann View Post
    Kostner.

    her competitors : Kwan, Slutskaya, Cohen, Arakawa, Kim, Asada, Rochette, Ando etc.
    Kostner's WC results : 10th(03') - 5th(04') - 3rd(05') - 12th(06') - 6th(07') - 2nd(08') - 12th(09') - 6th(10') - 3rd(11') - 1st(12') - 2nd(13')
    That makes sense.

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