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  1. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by MissJD View Post
    Here's the LP from CoR http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQDZOJrOcD8 and the protocols http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FS_Scores.pdf

    No Throw 3a for those of you that wanted it gone. Anyone want to tell me why the twist only got +2 GOE? I thought it was excellent... And these PCS marks are all over the place! From low 8s to a 10! Maybe I'm missing something but I think some (a lot) of these are way too low.
    Plus 2 GOE is an excellent GOE for a twist. I don't think their twist is as good as V/T's or even the best twist at the Cup of Russia.

  2. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladola View Post
    Ok, Guys, Is anyone else starting to feel really bad for Aliona, A four time world champion,
    Who is on the verge of breaking her body because she feels (rightfully) that otherwise she'll be cheated out of her last shot at Olympic Gold,
    Because the Russians need their Olympic champions, In a form of a very good, recently very consistent pair,
    Who attempt no major jumps in their programs and recieve Compenent scores in the 9.8s and 9.9s,
    Which is almost a full mark higher then any other pair ever, For just ok programs ?
    Your interpretation is that Aliona is 'self-harming' (breaking her body on impossibly difficult element) in order to have a chance to win gold medal, which would otherwise be 'cheated' from her. My interpretation is that Aliona and Robin decided to push the boundaries of the sport. I am sure they are aware that the triple axel may be a big gain, but also a huge loss if she doesn't land it. They are prepared to take the risk. However, they do have a choice. Alternatively they could make sure that they are CONSISTENT and that the quality of their other elements is very high. That's the route chosen by Volosozhar-Trankov. Volosozhar-Trankov skated both GP events clean and their elements are of a very high quality. Aliona and Robin made a number of mistakes in both their events. Clean throw triple salchow at the end of their program would bring more points than messed up triple axel. However, if they want to beat V-T, they do need to be consistent on all their elements. Take notice of their today's FS - doubling both toe loops and singling the axel is not going to be enough. They are not choosing to do the difficult element (3A) because otherwise they would be cheated out of their rightful gold medal. They are doing it because they can see that they are not consistent with the side by side jump elements and need to earn the extra points somewhere.
    Last edited by hanca; 11-23-2013 at 09:25 PM.

  3. #143
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    It might be that they took out the throw axel because Aljona was so hurt the day before and they didn't want to risk injury. I agree they have consistency issues, but for me they are by far the most interesting pair to watch. Very elegant and beautiful. I am also really happy they stayed for this quad because of the great programs they have skated (well, except for maybe Bolero). The Nutcracker is lovely, I hope they skate it clean.

  4. #144
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    I said this in the Kiss & Cry forums, but I wish they'd forget the 3A and focus on consistent speed and power throughout the program. In both programs there are sections with power, speed and flow, but also sections that are glacial. V/T only have one section like that - the last lift before the final pose.

    I really love V/T, but when I watch S/S I waver. It's been like that ever since I became a V/T uber. I tune in to the main competition, S/S and see how good they are. Charisma and charm too.

    When I look at element quality, the teams are completely on par, element to element. So clean. Completely in control. Wonderful quality of edge. S/S don't need the 3A. If they skate as they skated here - good speed and power in part of the program, slowing way down in other parts, it won't matter if she manages to stick the landing on the 3A at the Olympics, if V/T are mostly clean, they'll win due to the nonstop speed and power coupled with element quality that matches S/S. S/S both look ferociously fit. Even back in 2010 the fact that one of their lifts didn't cover much ice and some parts of the program were slow was mentioned. They spin fast. Their death spiral moves at a good clip. It's coming out of elements and in preparation that they slow down versus V/T, even when the elements themselves are delivered with good speed. Yet due to both being strong technicians, both having excellent skating skills, it would seem they could up the ante in that area without having to remake themselves.

  5. #145
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    At this point in time they can't be cheated out of any olympic gold medal because none of the segments have been skated yet. Their programmes last season didn't help their cause either, which could have been to distinguish themselves in that regard, that much is clear. This year's programmes are no uberprogrammes but pretty decent. The throw axel, if well executed, is also as much a symbolic thing as a point getter.

    V/T are clearly ahead in the twist and SBS jumps. S/S also have never been the most consistent pair to begin with. And consistent performances raise your PCS over time. However, they should have the chance to be evaluated fairly in relation to V/T in those PCS areas and certain elements+GOE where they can compete with V/T and are not clearly behind. IMHO, it doesn't look like that will be the case. Even though it's all rather academic and they will probably lose either way and likely deservedly so given the lots of problems they have at the moment.

    We will see what happens at the GPF in that regard.

  6. #146
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    I feel like one of the big issues with their program this year is that it's to a ballet, and they're trying to take a classical approach to it. For the most part it's fine, but their lifts do not fit the music at all. Their timing with the music is usually slightly off, but what really bothers me are her positions. They would go great with more modern approaches, but not with the nutcracker.

  7. #147
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    I felt the same way about Berezhnaia/Sikharulidze's lift with the circusy flip up and over entrance. It worked perfectly for Chaplin, but was out of place in Meditation. However, teams go with what they've done before or variations of them that have been big winners in the past.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  8. #148
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    ^this. That was the one move that felt really out of place in an otherwise gorgeous LP.

    I don't think S&S are as interesting to watch when they skate like every one else, which is what they are doing this year and last year. Maybe Ingo ran out of ideas, but it did not look like Wilson came up with anything fresh for them either. I really wanted to like S&S programs this year, but I have not been able to.

  9. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subway View Post

    When I look at element quality, the teams are completely on par, element to element. So clean. Completely in control. Wonderful quality of edge. S/S don't need the 3A. If they skate as they skated here - good speed and power in part of the program, slowing way down in other parts, it won't matter if she manages to stick the landing on the 3A at the Olympics, if V/T are mostly clean, they'll win due to the nonstop speed and power coupled with element quality that matches S/S. S/S both look ferociously fit. Even back in 2010 the fact that one of their lifts didn't cover much ice and some parts of the program were slow was mentioned. They spin fast. Their death spiral moves at a good clip. It's coming out of elements and in preparation that they slow down versus V/T, even when the elements themselves are delivered with good speed. Yet due to both being strong technicians, both having excellent skating skills, it would seem they could up the ante in that area without having to remake themselves.
    The trouble is, they are NOT completely on par, element to element. Let's try to look at it element by element:
    V/T usually lands their sbs jumps, S/S sometimes double
    V/T have huge throw jumps, but S/S too - here they are both on par.
    twist - V/T have a huge one, S/S can have sometimes decent one but sometimes he struggles to catch her and she lands on his shoulder.
    Both pairs have very good lifts - here I would say they are both on par
    Both have decent spins (both sbs spin and pair spin)

    As you said, S/S has a few spots in their program where they are not quite moving. A bit like dancing on ice - hit nice position, look pretty an don't do too much. No action. V/T doesn't have them, or at least it doesn't show so much if they do.

    V/T have consistency, S/S have really completely clean program.

  10. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    ^this. That was the one move that felt really out of place in an otherwise gorgeous LP.

    I don't think S&S are as interesting to watch when they skate like every one else, which is what they are doing this year and last year. Maybe Ingo ran out of ideas, but it did not look like Wilson came up with anything fresh for them either. I really wanted to like S&S programs this year, but I have not been able to.
    I feel the same. I would love them to skate to a program with those extra new little things. In the past Pavlova gave Iliushetchkina-Maisuradze some little tiny bits of transitions that no one else did, Duhamel-Radford have a few interesting touches, Takahashi-Tran had a few in their last season together. All those little new things (interesting transitions or a new way to do an element) add something fresh into the program. these are really little things but the overall effect makes all the difference. In the past S/S had those too, but they definitely don't have it now. They are elegant, but they do elements and you know what is coming. I feel S/S lost a bit of their charm and it is not their fault; it is like if Steuer run out of creativity.

  11. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    V/T have huge throw jumps, but S/S too - here they are both on par.
    I think S/S deserve the edge here for having a harder throw jump (their excellent 3F) and for putting one at the end of their LP. In addition, Tatiana has at times had some dodgy landings on the throws.

    I think in terms of elements they are pretty evenly matched. S/S have generally had more program content outside the elements. V/T tend to be more consistent, at least for the past calendar year or so. If both pairs skate well, I think they should be evenly matched. The politiks in this situation make it unlikely.

  12. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    I think S/S deserve the edge here for having a harder throw jump (their excellent 3F) and for putting one at the end of their LP. In addition, Tatiana has at times had some dodgy landings on the throws.
    But arguably isn't the scale of values there to give someone the edge for having a harder throw? I mean the throw 3F gets more points than a throw 3Lp or throw 3S so the edge is there in the base value. So i would disagree with S/S desrving the edge here. While I agree that Tatiana has has some dodgy landings on the throws - I think she had most of the them on the throw 3F the years they attempted it, and I see a marked improvement in their throw jumps this season so I think they are on a par.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    I think in terms of elements they are pretty evenly matched. S/S have generally had more program content outside the elements. V/T tend to be more consistent, at least for the past calendar year or so. If both pairs skate well, I think they should be evenly matched. The politiks in this situation make it unlikely.
    I agree I think in terms of elements they are faily evenly matched, however, I think V&Ts programmes have been choreographed with GOE bullets in mind though, more carefully that S&S. I say this because when V&T first skated on the GP I was a little bit outraged by the GOE scores they were getting and went to do an analysis of their programmes so went and dug out the GOE guidelines and watched their programmes and promptly had to eat my words...even the GOE bullets that are somewhat subjective, they make sure to tick the most objective ones, so that the subjective ones are the icing on the cake (like height and distance of the jump, or delayed rotation in the throw etc). I found myself surprised and quelled at the same time

  13. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macassar88 View Post
    I feel like one of the big issues with their program this year is that it's to a ballet, and they're trying to take a classical approach to it. For the most part it's fine, but their lifts do not fit the music at all. Their timing with the music is usually slightly off, but what really bothers me are her positions. They would go great with more modern approaches, but not with the nutcracker.
    This is an interesting point. There are several lifts in the last, climactic minute of S/S's program, and they're important in trying to build the mood. Aliona's catchfoot positions are extremely well done but not really elegant or beautiful. The positions are there for points, I guess, but they don't match the sweeping, romantic feel of the music. As I watched, I kept thinking, these lifts would have more impact emotionally if she were in a classic swan or star position that would really wow the audience.

    The ISU should look at the CoP for pairs lifts and make some changes. Lifts are increasingly difficult now, but not nearly as enjoyable to watch as they were in earlier eras. Lifts should not detract from the overall look of the program just to get points IMO.

  14. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    But arguably isn't the scale of values there to give someone the edge for having a harder throw? I mean the throw 3F gets more points than a throw 3Lp or throw 3S so the edge is there in the base value. So i would disagree with S/S desrving the edge here. While I agree that Tatiana has has some dodgy landings on the throws - I think she had most of the them on the throw 3F the years they attempted it, and I see a marked improvement in their throw jumps this season so I think they are on a par.
    That's true for base value, but Hanca's post sort of referred to both BV and execution so I responded to that. And I just feel like there is more value in executing a more difficult element well (the GOE units are the same for all the triple throws though, aren't they)? I also think it is considerably more difficult to land a throw jump at the end of the program than right at the halfway point. But again, the system doesn't really reward this.

    I think V&Ts programmes have been choreographed with GOE bullets in mind though, more carefully that S&S. I say this because when V&T first skated on the GP I was a little bit outraged by the GOE scores they were getting and went to do an analysis of their programmes so went and dug out the GOE guidelines and watched their programmes and promptly had to eat my words...even the GOE bullets that are somewhat subjective, they make sure to tick the most objective ones, so that the subjective ones are the icing on the cake (like height and distance of the jump, or delayed rotation in the throw etc). I found myself surprised and quelled at the same time
    Choreographing for the system often results in programs that are exactly the sum of their parts.... V/T could be so much more interesting than they are. But anyway, I'm more concerned about their PCS than their GOE.

  15. #155
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    I like S/S a lot, but they make a lot of mistakes and I'm not talking about the 3A. They are not skating at the level they were 4 years ago or even 2 years ago. Robin is as likely to miss a jump as he is to hit it. It's unfair to blame V/T for honing their skills. They haven't made a mistake all season. Not one. For S/S to be truely competitive, they must put out mistake free programs just like V/T are doing. That hasn't happened for a long time. They've had illness that impacted them and lord knows Aliona has skated in pain given the falls she's had in practice to say nothing of competitions. But, it's really not fair to blame V/T for skating clean and winning.
    Those who never succeed themselves are always the first to tell you how.

  16. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by rfisher View Post
    It's unfair to blame V/T for honing their skills. They haven't made a mistake all season.
    Trankov's styling is a massive mistake

    I blame them for wasting their talent on boring programs; in hindsight, the lyrical snot era wasn't all that bad...

  17. #157

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    Many interesting comments and I agree with some and I disagree with others.
    Tatiana and Maxim have certainly an advantage over Aliona and Robin since winning Worlds last season. As other said, they have performed excellently this season and if they continue to skate as clean and powerful and Aliona and Robin continue to make mistakes it is of course not unfair nor thanks to pushing by their federation if they win in Sochi.

    However, I think Aliona and Robin still have the better choreography and I disagree with those who said that they don't do these little extras anymore. Just look at their entry into the sbs 3T in the short and into the 2A in the free. The long program is exquisite, but I think they need to get some more speed.
    I prefer Tatiana and Maxim's short program, but Aliona and Robin's long program. Tatiana's and Max' FS has quite a few empty places and poses.
    When looking back, "Pina" was a masterpiece. The "Bolero" never was skated to its full potential, so it is a bit hard to judge. Although I didn't particulary like the music (probably my least favorite program by Savchenko/Szokowy), I think it was a difficult program and they were hardly ever stopping. So I can't agree with those who said that Aliona and Robin's programs aren't as good in the past two years as before. Maybe you just got so used to the quality of their program that you don't notice anymore why they are different and superior to most others.

    As for the throw triple Axel, I wish they would take it out of the short program and keep it as an option, a trump card, for the long. Depending on where they are after the short and how they feel, they could go for it. In the short I believe the risk is too high and the throw takes away from the program too much. Plus it doesn't really give them that many more points. It only would give them more if landed really cleanly with positive GOE, but I don't know if that is going to happen. I actually discussed this with Aliona in Moscow. According to Aliona, her motivation for doing the throw is most of all to continue to do something new and different that the others are not doing. She said they never would have had so much success if they always had stuck to the old and proven ways.
    For sure they were among the first ones to put difficult elements into the second half (even before the bonus was introduced I believe) and continue to do so (they have the twist and one jump in the second half while Tatiana and Max do both jumps and the twist in the beginning).

    As for the side by side jumps, Savchenko/Szolkowy usually land the triple toe-triple toe in the long and it is impressive, they really have a great unison in their elements.

    That said, I really like both teams and wish they will perform their best.

  18. #158
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    Well said, Eislauffan. I agree with everything.

  19. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    That's true for base value, but Hanca's post sort of referred to both BV and execution so I responded to that. And I just feel like there is more value in executing a more difficult element well (the GOE units are the same for all the triple throws though, aren't they)? I also think it is considerably more difficult to land a throw jump at the end of the program than right at the halfway point. But again, the system doesn't really reward this.
    I do agree that it is so much harder to land a throw jump right at the end, but the main problem for S&S are that they haven't actually landed the jump at the end in quite some time - the throw salchow was flawed at COR, and they throw 3A too. Granted they usually did land it when it was the 3S, but they quest for the 3A has overshaddowed that a little, at least for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eislauffan View Post
    As for the side by side jumps, Savchenko/Szolkowy usually land the triple toe-triple toe in the long and it is impressive, they really have a great unison in their elements.
    I agree it is an incredibly impressive element when they hit it, but they have been less consistent with them recently, and they rarely hit both solo jumps, which tends to then leave an impression of weakness in the SBS jumps, even though that may not necessariyl be true. They had errors on both solo jumps at COR, hit great 3T/3T at COC but missed the axels, previous to that at worlds they had errors on both the toe-loops and the axels (popping if memory serves), hit the 3/3 at europeans, but doubled and fell on attempted salchows......which rightly or wrongly makes them appear weak in the SBS jumps.

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    They skate amazing, perfect short program. And they get second mark lower in every single component...

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