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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by mia joy View Post
    I love Tatiana and Max as skaters, they have amazing skating quality and Tatiana is the best one out there, but I hate them as competitors. They so stubbornly stick to those throw sal and loops whereas all the others work their butts off to land lutzes, flips, 3axels and quads and still get scores lightyears worse than V/T. I know jumps are not all that counts, but V/T really aren't THAT much better than S/S or some others in other aspects either.

    I am so done cheering for V/T. I adored the idea of them as a pair, I loved them their first season together and I am a sucker for their chemistry - but I am so sick of them breaking world records with their most difficult jump being a loop. I am SO done.
    Why should they work on incorporating more difficulty? Their primary goal is to win, and the judges have already shown that they will be happy to reward V/T for their strong (though not as difficult) elements and mediocre programs.

    My issue is with V/T's PCS, which is now in ludicrous territory. I hope S/S's marks will enjoy a similar boost this season so that it will be an actual competition, but considering the nationalities and politikking of the skaters and federations involved, I doubt it.

  2. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    I wonder why S/S haven't competed yet this season. V/T already have two competitions under their belts. S/S should have at least done a Senior B to get their programs out there like V/T did at Nebelhorn.
    One of those competitions is the GP, and there has only been one competition, and being seeded skaters they can't skate against each other until the final.

    V/T were roundly criticised for going to Nebelhorn in many threads so I think they're all damned if they do and damned if they don't. V/T have done at least one senior B ever since they got together, do S/S have a history of competing at senior Bs? I would guess that they would prefer a later start, if they are determined to put the triple axel in both programmes then I suspect they want more training time in order to ensure they have a fighting chance of putting relatively clean programmes out there.

  3. #83
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    S/S did Nebelhorn in 2004-5, and 2007-9. They also did NRW 2012.

    http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs_cr_00007498.htm
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  4. #84

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    Aljona took a hard fall on the throw triple Axel in training, apparently just when a TV crew came to film their practice before they leave for China:
    http://www.mdr.de/mediathek/suche/vi...-d23ba9ff.html
    (TV report from October 26)

    Aljona says this is part of training. "Training is not coffee and cake, but also pain." Ingo said he brought her ice and that she knows how to deal with it. He said she was tired but still wanted to do the Axel. Hopefully she won't be too sore! They will leave on Tuesday for Beijing.

    The report also mentions how well Tatiana and Max have scored at Skate America. Robin comments that they have to focus on themselves and that the direct comparison will count.

  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eislauffan View Post
    Aljona took a hard fall on the throw triple Axel in training, apparently just when a TV crew came to film their practice before they leave for China:
    http://www.mdr.de/mediathek/suche/vi...-d23ba9ff.html
    (TV report from October 26)
    Nooooo! I hope it's not too serious and that she'll be up to speed again quickly (and not in too much pain...)

  6. #86
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    That jump was clearly underrotated. I'm wondering if it's a good idea to go for the axel in the SP, maybe a perfectly executed flip would give them more than an underrotated axel with a fall?

    Anyways, hope she's fine. I've been counting the days until we finally see their new programs!

  7. #87

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    seeing her in tears is hard; but you can see her determination!
    hope she will be fit and both will rock the arena in china!

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eislauffan View Post
    The report also mentions how well Tatiana and Max have scored at Skate America. Robin comments that they have to focus on themselves and that the direct comparison will count.
    That's one thing I hate about CoP. Seems like the skaters can't ease into their season anymore. Winning a Grand Prix is not enough, you're really competing against your rivals' scores from the previous competition.

    Aljona has a good attitude. You can't expect to add a jump like that without taking hard falls. There were other good attempts in the video.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by mia joy View Post
    That jump was clearly underrotated. I'm wondering if it's a good idea to go for the axel in the SP, maybe a perfectly executed flip would give them more than an underrotated axel with a fall?
    It definitely would. But given how huge the scores that Volosozhar/Trankov have been getting are, Savchenko/Szolkowy must feel that landing the th3a is their only chance to beat them.

  10. #90
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    ^ But what if failing at it costs them silver as well and they drop to third again? God, it's such a gamble. I wish nothing more than to see them be clean, for once. They truly deserve the best.

  11. #91

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    I believe the throw has become quite consistent by now in training. Skaters take falls at other throws as well. Eventually, if the success rate is not high enough in training, Savchenko/Szolkowy and their coach are for sure smart enough not to include it and will go for the flip and the Salchow (in the free) instead. They started working on this element not yesterday and they always knew that it will be very hard to beat Volosozhar/Trankov in Sotchi, therefore they started training it plus they want to push the envelope.

  12. #92

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    Re-posting to this relevant thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by N_Halifax View Post
    Interview With Ingo Steuer: http://skateguard1.blogspot.com/2013...go-steuer.html
    ...
    Q: At one point or another, you've coached Aliona Savchenko, Robin Szolkowy, Tatiana Volosozhar and Eric Radford, members of all three of the world's top teams right now. What are the strengths of all three of these teams and who do you see coming out on top in Sochi if all three skate clean?

    A: All are different, but all are hard workers and have the dream to win. If all skate clean in Sochi, the result will be Russia, Germany, Canada.
    Cup of China photos - SP, FS, exhibition: http://www3.daylife.com/search/photo...a+2013+Beijing

    Cup of China videos:
    SP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNAaIp8mOGU
    FS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9jJGWXxJ1A
    Last edited by Sylvia; 11-10-2013 at 03:36 PM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  13. #93

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    I am really glad that someone is pushing the sport further by doing things that no one else is able/dares to do. Mao Asada with her Axel, Savchenko-Szolkowy with their throw axel, two Chinese pairs with their quad twist... I think if some element is as rare as that, it should be having bigger value. After all, it is a huge risk they are taking, so in my opinion the reward for the successful element should be bigger.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    I am really glad that someone is pushing the sport further by doing things that no one else is able/dares to do. Mao Asada with her Axel, Savchenko-Szolkowy with their throw axel, two Chinese pairs with their quad twist... I think if some element is as rare as that, it should be having bigger value. After all, it is a huge risk they are taking, so in my opinion the reward for the successful element should be bigger.
    I think this is a tricky situation. On the one hand, you have a point but on the other hand, if it had a bigger value wouldn't then there be more couples trying it which, in return, could easily mean more injuries?
    After all, if the success is bigger for succeeding, it's also bigger for failing since the base value would have to be higher to begin with. Unless you give a skater a bonus like it's given for jumps done later in the program, however, how would they decide which elements would get that bonus and where would they draw the line?

  15. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballettmaus View Post
    I think this is a tricky situation. On the one hand, you have a point but on the other hand, if it had a bigger value wouldn't then there be more couples trying it which, in return, could easily mean more injuries?
    After all, if the success is bigger for succeeding, it's also bigger for failing since the base value would have to be higher to begin with. Unless you give a skater a bonus like it's given for jumps done later in the program, however, how would they decide which elements would get that bonus and where would they draw the line?
    Not necessarily. The positive GOE could be much bigger, so it would reward successful element, but not failed element.

    In regards to how to decide which elements should be rewarded more, that's pretty easy. All quads, including quads twist and quad throw. Triple Axel in ladies and pairs, including triple throw axel. Also triple-triple combination (side by side jumps) in pairs.

  16. #96
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    Right now, the throw 3A and quads, along with the quad twist, are hugely undervalued. Right now, a throw triple flip or lutz is worth 5.5 (in singles, a triple flip is worth 5.3 and triple lutz is worth 6.0). A throw triple axel is worth 7.5 points (whereas the jump itself is worth 8.5 points). I'm not sure why the flip/lutz are so much closer to the single analogues but the axel is so far behind.

  17. #97
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    Because the scoring system is still a work-in-progress.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    Right now, the throw 3A and quads, along with the quad twist, are hugely undervalued. Right now, a throw triple flip or lutz is worth 5.5 (in singles, a triple flip is worth 5.3 and triple lutz is worth 6.0). A throw triple axel is worth 7.5 points (whereas the jump itself is worth 8.5 points). I'm not sure why the flip/lutz are so much closer to the single analogues but the axel is so far behind.
    CoP is reactionary. Once someone is consistently landing it and they realize it's not worth enough, they'll change it, but not in time to help those skaters. I&B did land it a few times, but they weren't that high profile or consistent, and a lot of people thought they were intentionally putting it in the second half so they could get a bonus even for falling on it.

  19. #99

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    I think the SP is okay, but don't think S&S carry The Nutcracker well. I'm not crazy about V&S's long either, mostly because - as is so often the case with medleys - the music is choppy, which compromises the coherency of the program (IMO). I do love the Masquerade Waltz though.

    While I prefer the Russians to the Germans and think they have more of the wow factor, IMO their long program doesn't measure up to signature Russian's pairs Olympic programs (B&S 2002, M&D and G&G, 1994).

    Yes, they are well-matched and have great unison, and yes, Tatiania is in a class of her own as a female pairs skater.

    But, I think the difference in quality between the two teams is being exaggerated and feel that S&S aren't getting the credit that is due them from the commentators. The Eurosports commentators described them as having learned to settle for playing second fiddle to a much more powerful and young team and I'm sure the Canadian commentators are not the only other commentators to already have handed V&T the Olympic gold.

    Robyn and Aliona are four time world champions and while perhaps not at the very top of their game, still a class above most of the field. In a fair world, if they skated clean and with heart, and V&T made mistakes, S&S should have a shot at the title. As it is, V&S probably have a three -mistake advantage. Robyn and Aliona do have a similar advantage over P&T (that was clear in China) that I personally don't agree with, but I love P&T. Even so, it's like they are being prepared to skate for silver, as a consolation prize.

    Not to mention, Robyn and Aliona usually start the season slow. They've got lots of miles left to put on their programs, so final critiques of the program are not yet warranted.

    Robyn and Aliona aren't even being led to believe that they have a chance - that is, if they are listening to TPTB in FS (which they may not be) - and that has got to be hard on them. You don't hear commentators making comments about other skaters in similar 'second fiddle' positions. They don't diminish Takahashi by saying he's older and slower than Chan, and clearly inferior to Chan. Instead, they present him as a contender to Chan. The same with Virtue/Moir. Their placement last season and how they started out this season could easily lead commentators to draw the 'second fiddle' conclusion, but they don't. Or, haven't 'yet'.

    It must be really hard for Robyn and Aliona to find motivation, if they know - and believe - they are competing for silver. If so, that could be one of the reasons for the mistakes they made in China.
    Last edited by Japanfan; 11-11-2013 at 09:06 AM.

  20. #100

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    Well said Japanfan just one thing.... I really like Aljona and Robins FP otherwise I totally agree with you

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