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  1. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by lauravvv View Post
    Did she scrape the ice on one (two?) of the throws at NHK Trophy? At Nebelhorn? At Skate America? I am asking because I sure didn't notice that during the skates, even on replays and watching the skates repeatedly, although I had suspicions at NHK (actually, I always have them, because I know how hard it is for me to notice this during the skate itself). If there were scrapes of ice with the other foot that were barely noticeable it's not the same as two footing. Two footing is when a skater really lands on two feet. If a skater scrapes the ice just slightly with her other foot, I believe that other features/qualities of the throw can make up for it at least partially. Probably they shouldn't get +3 for such a throw, but +1 or even +2 is more or less okay.
    If there is a touchdown of the free foot (but not a landing on two feet, which leaves it open to interpretation) then there should be a reduction of -1 in the GOE but the overall GOE can still be positive.

    The thing I take issue with with V&T is that the throw salchow is always outrigged, in other words, it takes off on two feet - her free foot is always on the ice and often throws snow up showing she takes off on two feet. It's not just her, a lot of the female pairs skaters do this on the salchow, and it's one of my personal bug bears (I used to hate it when Tim Goebel outrigged his quad salchows too) and the IJS clearly states that a take off on two feet is a -2GOE and mandatory negative GOE. I don't think the judges ever seem to do this though.

  2. #122

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    One can wonder why pairs that has outrigged takes off gets + Goe then !

  3. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post

    The thing I take issue with with V&T is that the throw salchow is always outrigged, in other words, it takes off on two feet - her free foot is always on the ice and often throws snow up showing she takes off on two feet.
    I don't think it is not possible to do Salchow from two feet. Not even throw Salchow. The free leg is often so low that it looks like if it was on the ice, but to be able to move the free leg around you (from the free leg being behind you through to free leg being sideways then diagonally in front of you and then jumping up while lifting the leg as if stepping on an invisible step) the blade would catch the ice. Also, the momentum is gained from the leg circling in the air around your body. With the leg being on the ice you wouldn't have the momentum.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    I don't think it is not possible to do Salchow from two feet. Not even throw Salchow. The free leg is often so low that it looks like if it was on the ice, but to be able to move the free leg around you (from the free leg being behind you through to free leg being sideways then diagonally in front of you and then jumping up while lifting the leg as if stepping on an invisible step) the blade would catch the ice. Also, the momentum is gained from the leg circling in the air around your body. With the leg being on the ice you wouldn't have the momentum.
    Yes - I think that this has been discussed - possible many moons ago, IRT Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze, and that someone more knowledgeable than myself indicated that it's not possible to take off with 2-feet on the ice, but that it can "look" like both feet are on the ice at take-off.

  5. #125
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    Ok, Guys, Is anyone else starting to feel really bad for Aliona, A four time world champion,
    Who is on the verge of breaking her body because she feels (rightfully) that otherwise she'll be cheated out of her last shot at Olympic Gold,
    Because the Russians need their Olympic champions, In a form of a very good, recently very consistent pair,
    Who attempt no major jumps in their programs and recieve Compenent scores in the 9.8s and 9.9s,
    Which is almost a full mark higher then any other pair ever, For just ok programs ?

  6. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladola View Post
    Ok, Guys, Is anyone else starting to feel really bad for Aliona, A four time world champion,
    Who is on the verge of breaking her body because she feels (rightfully) that otherwise she'll be cheated out of her last shot at Olympic Gold,
    Because the Russians need their Olympic champions, In a form of a very good, recently very consistent pair,
    Who attempt no major jumps in their programs and recieve Compenent scores in the 9.8s and 9.9s,
    Which is almost a full mark higher then any other pair ever, For just ok programs ?
    I do feel bad for them, therefore I'd love them to think their plans over and ditch the axel in the short. A clean throw 3flip with +3GOE may make up for the (usually) unsuccessful throw axel. Plus I can't watch these painful falls and Aljona in tears . For sure it won't be enough to bridge the gap between them and V/T, but clean S/S might be much closer to V/T (and further from these pairs who would love to overtake them - the Canadian pairs, other pairs form Russia etc.)....

    I can understand the risk in the free, but not in the short. Dear Aljona and Robin, please reconsider!

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladola View Post
    Which is almost a full mark higher then any other pair ever, For just ok programs ?
    I do not think V/T are doing 'just okay' programs. Yes- they are not doing the hardest elements possible, but they are doing their elements close to perfection. The last Olympics men's showed us that sometimes the harder elements aren't as good as a well-rounded, well skated, technically easier program.

    I do feel bad for Aliona, and I hope she does not seriously hurt herself, but no one is entitled to an Olympic medal just for hard work or longevity. Every cycle someone unexpected comes up and nips at the heels, and sometimes surpasses, the person who was supposed to be next in line. Sport is brutal. She is a highly decorated figure skater, four time world champion, she is an Olympic medalist. No one can take that from her- but just because it appeared they'd be next in line for Olympic Gold doesn't mean it is automatically given to them. She's not being cheated out of anything. The Germans could have taken the "easier but fabulous" path instead of the "as difficult as it can be" path; they chose not to.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladola View Post
    Ok, Guys, Is anyone else starting to feel really bad for Aliona, A four time world champion,
    Who is on the verge of breaking her body because she feels (rightfully) that otherwise she'll be cheated out of her last shot at Olympic Gold,
    Because the Russians need their Olympic champions, In a form of a very good, recently very consistent pair,
    Who attempt no major jumps in their programs and recieve Compenent scores in the 9.8s and 9.9s,
    Which is almost a full mark higher then any other pair ever, For just ok programs ?
    IMHO, it s clear that the judges have decided that V/T do all their moves at +2 or +3 when they complete them, and they give the near full PCS mark for every single performance. The GOE marks and PCS marks are so much higher than everyone else including S/S.

    I do not understand this gap in the marks, so great that V/T could remove three major elements from their FS performance an still be competitive with the best in the world. These are G/G or B/S level marks indicative of one of the greatest pair teams EVER. Like 6.0s in the old day.

    This team of V/T is not one of the greatest ever, but they are being marked as if they are. Personally, I love the SP of Aliona this year, and hope they can score well enough to be competitive at Euros and Olympics.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    I do not think V/T are doing 'just okay' programs. Yes- they are not doing the hardest elements possible, but they are doing their elements close to perfection. The last Olympics men's showed us that sometimes the harder elements aren't as good as a well-rounded, well skated, technically easier program.

    I do feel bad for Aliona, and I hope she does not seriously hurt herself, but no one is entitled to an Olympic medal just for hard work or longevity. Every cycle someone unexpected comes up and nips at the heels, and sometimes surpasses, the person who was supposed to be next in line. Sport is brutal. She is a highly decorated figure skater, four time world champion, she is an Olympic medalist. No one can take that from her- but just because it appeared they'd be next in line for Olympic Gold doesn't mean it is automatically given to them. She's not being cheated out of anything. The Germans could have taken the "easier but fabulous" path instead of the "as difficult as it can be" path; they chose not to.
    Yes, My point though was more in the line of:
    she should be entitled to an Olympic gold because she's probably the absolute best, Or at least equal to the pair that is beating her senseless,
    You can't deny that in any other setting, V\T probably wouldn't get these marks, And would have to step out of their comfort zone
    with their Olympic programs and element layout, Like everybody else,
    I mean ... Do your remember last year's GPF ?!!

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladola View Post
    Yes, My point though was more in the line of:
    she should be entitled to an Olympic gold because she's probably the absolute best, Or at least equal to the pair that is beating her senseless,
    So should Michelle Kwan. Maybe they should form a support group.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    So should Michelle Kwan. Maybe they should form a support group.
    That's cute, But again, Not the point .

    If both S\S and V\T would skate clean right now, V\T would unrightfuly win by about 13-15 points,

    And if i must - Kwan fell, Hughes did 2 triple triples, Their scores were still pretty close

  12. #132
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    My point for Kwan - is she is one of the absolute best. Ever. But she has no OGM.
    Savchenko is one of the best too, and OGM isn't looking good. You used the term cheated out of it, and I don't think they are being cheated, for whatever reason, in the judges mind, they have been surpassed.

    But the timing isn't right. I don't think the clean 3A will get S/S the gold, the judges/system prefer V/T. I don't know enough about the scoring to know why.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    My point for Kwan - is she is one of the absolute best. Ever. But she has no OGM.
    Savchenko is one of the best too, and OGM isn't looking good. You used the term cheated out of it, and I don't think they are being cheated, for whatever reason, in the judges mind, they have been surpassed.

    But the timing isn't right. I don't think the clean 3A will get S/S the gold, the judges/system prefer V/T. I don't know enough about the scoring to know why.
    IMO there is no comparison to kwan

    If S\S don't compete well at the Olys then they should'nt win, Like Kwan.
    If they do then they should not lose by a giant margin, Which is what will happen

  14. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    Savchenko is one of the best too, and OGM isn't looking good. You used the term cheated out of it, and I don't think they are being cheated, for whatever reason, in the judges mind, they have been surpassed.

    But the timing isn't right. I don't think the clean 3A will get S/S the gold, the judges/system prefer V/T. I don't know enough about the scoring to know why.
    They found themselves competing against a top pair which, unlike them, has the backing of very strong federation that is working all out for results at a home Olympics. Aliona and Robin, when they are on forum, can compete on the ice - but they cannot compete off of it. So yes, I'd say they have been cheated - not of a rightful medal, but of the opportunity to compete for one fairly.

  15. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladola View Post
    Ok, Guys, Is anyone else starting to feel really bad for Aliona, A four time world champion,
    Who is on the verge of breaking her body because she feels (rightfully) that otherwise she'll be cheated out of her last shot at Olympic Gold,
    Because the Russians need their Olympic champions, In a form of a very good, recently very consistent pair,
    Who attempt no major jumps in their programs and recieve Compenent scores in the 9.8s and 9.9s,
    Which is almost a full mark higher then any other pair ever, For just ok programs ?
    I think that's a little far fetched. Just because S&S are attempting a throw 3A in both programmes (and have yet to land a clean one that receives full base mark or more after GOE reduction/increase). I didn't see anyone claiming Kavaguti & Smirnov where being oh so technical when they were including flawed 4Ss in their programmes.

    V&T are showing two different solo triples in their LP where S&S are including 3Ts and 2As (and struggling with those).

    As to the rest I love both of these couples but to me, V&T are clearly skating precise clean programmes with excellent quality elements. They are skating with amazing speed and skating skills, if somewhat emptier and choreographically lacking programmes. S&S so far don't appear to be skating as fast, and while their SP is interesting for me, I think their LP is their own attempt to play it safe choreogrgaphically speaking, and I don't think it pays off. The focus on the 3A throw (and the long telegraphed entry in both programmes) really has taken away from the rest of the programmes, where V&T have gone for safe (almost a little boring) programmes, but they have really honed their elements, and made sure they are ticking every bullet of the GOE criteria to ensure they end up with really high GOE.

    At this point S&S need to skate clean, and they won't do if they keep including the throw 3A.

    Perhaps the fix was in for this season anyway, but so far the Germans are giving it away without the need for the fix.

  16. #136
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    S/S are giving it away because they are aware of the fix and need to overcome it someway, however desperate, there's just no level playing ground, that much has been made clear.

    V/T do have way better SBS jumps, that alone would be difficult enough to tackle as S/S have shaky double Axels and no triple Salchows. Be it as it may, if you have no way of touching your opponent in PCS and GOE, there's only the base value as a go-to option. I don't like the triple Axel setups and success rate either, but the only other option is to hope for multiple big mistakes in both segments by V/T. Now, even if they land the throw successfully, it won't get them enough points to win but if they are 100% clean it will at least create some controversy.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kunstrijdster View Post

    V/T do have way better SBS jumps, that alone would be difficult enough to tackle as S/S have shaky double Axels and no triple Salchows. Be it as it may, if you have no way of touching your opponent in PCS and GOE, there's only the base value as a go-to option. I don't like the triple Axel setups and success rate either, but the only other option is to hope for multiple big mistakes in both segments by V/T. Now, even if they land the throw successfully, it won't get them enough points to win but if they are 100% clean it will at least create some controversy.
    They are losing some points with 3A. Because with long preparation they will not going to get high GOE and that setup for the jump killing the flow of the program. I'm afraid they are losing some PCS because of this.

  18. #138

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    V/T do have way better SBS jumps, that alone would be difficult enough to tackle as S/S have shaky double Axels and no triple Salchows. Be it as it may, if you have no way of touching your opponent in PCS and GOE, there's only the base value as a go-to option.
    Two years ago, before S/S went off on this triple axel craze, S/S were most certainly competiting with V/T on GOE and PCS and in fact were beating them. You can argue they weren't getting PCS enough but the point is they were competiting on the ice.

    What has changed here is not some sudden love by the judges for V/T. What has changed is S/S's skating. In the last two years.
    1. Their programs haven't been as good
    2. They haven't been skating anywhere near clean with or without the triple axel.

    V/T deserve huge GOES for those elements. They are gorgeous and huge. And I think the choreograph especially for the short program is getting better. They do have more power and speed than anyone else.

    Do I think that V/T have more fed support, absolutely. However so did the Chinese four years ago. You still have to skate clean though and V/T are also going to have ridiculous amounts of pressure on them in Sochi too. To win back that gold medal for Russia.

    If S/S had skated clean in Vancover they'd have won. Since the Chinese didn't exactly skate their best in Vancover.

    Its cool that S/S are going for that triple axel, but the fact is that they have in many ways stopped doing what got them to the top in the first place. Their programs aren't as good and they have not been skating nearly as well either.

    I don't think S/S in general is the same team they were two years ago. Its not just the triple axel they have been having issues with. They are a team that's though always had issues going clean and a lot of their world titles was in someways also due to lack of a competition....

    Based on how everyone's skating now, I don't think the results would be all that different vs S/S and V/T if both had strong feds.

    I mean case in point it wasn't the throw triple axel that cost S/S the gold at Worlds last year, some would argue that go them silver.

    Its great that S/S want to add that in there and I understand why they feel they need it. But it seems like they have allowed this throw to affect the quality of everything else.
    Last edited by bek; 11-23-2013 at 10:31 AM.

  19. #139
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    IMHO, The Nutcracker is a very good vehicle for them, an the Russian audience certainly responded well to it from the start for the program. I would suggest they work a little bit on relating to each other more in the middle and end of the program for performance improvements. Of course, they need to complete all their elements.

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    Here's the LP from CoR http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQDZOJrOcD8 and the protocols http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FS_Scores.pdf

    No Throw 3a for those of you that wanted it gone. Anyone want to tell me why the twist only got +2 GOE? I thought it was excellent... And these PCS marks are all over the place! From low 8s to a 10! Maybe I'm missing something but I think some (a lot) of these are way too low.

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