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  1. #521

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    As I said in my previous post, I don't recall Jenny or Dave stating flat out that journalism is their priority.
    Then why are they applying for press credentials to cover an event?

    The only clear goals I have heard them repeatedly state is that they would like to give a platform for skaters to speak honestly and that they would like to promote discussion of any kind about skating. The latter half of that is precisely what FSU seeks to do. Hasn't it been said in this thread that FSU has applied for press passes? Again, the lines aren't so clear.
    FSU *has* applied for press passes in the past. AFAIK it doesn't any more. I think FSU's purpose is clear. TSL's - maybe not so much. But it seems to me that deciding to do day-to-day coverage of an event and applying for press credentials are pretty obvious signs of positioning as journalism.

    In any case, whether the motives be journalistic or not, there is some irony in criticizing others who criticize skaters on a board that is filled with skater critiques.
    There's no irony in questioning the predominantly nasty and petty tone and content of a stream of criticism.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  2. #522
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    "You say potato, I say pah-ta-to; You say tomato, I say tuh-ma-to ... Let's call the whole thing off!"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ3fjQa5Hls

    Things that make ya go hmmm ....


    Meanwhile, thanks for shaking things up Jenny and Dave! Nobody's perfect and no one can please all of the people all of the time. Please do keep on keeping on, keep learning and growing and defining what your goals are. Don't stop being real and rad. At the same time, try to keep your feet on the ground and maintain a sense of balance in this crazy world of fs. Above all, thanks to everyone fed up with the lack of good, extensive, current and up-to-date figure skating coverage in this country who have set out to do something about it!!!

    Thanks manleywoman, N_Halifax, pingu, TanithandBenFan, Sylvia, FSU, GS, et al. Thanks to all for sharing their varied viewpoints, especially those who do it with thoughtfulness and good humor (shout out to peibeck ). Major kudos to those who manage to do it with respect and sensitivity toward the skaters at all times... that would be only a handful of folks here I believe (not always including me, btw).


    ETA: Thanks included to Absolute Skating, LifeSkate, and to many other bloggers and skating enthusiasts who help fill the gaping holes in relevant, meaningful, in-depth and up-to-date fs coverage.
    Last edited by aftershocks; 09-15-2013 at 09:09 PM.

  3. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Then why are they applying for press credentials to cover an event?



    FSU *has* applied for press passes in the past. AFAIK it doesn't any more. I think FSU's purpose is clear. TSL's - maybe not so much. But it seems to me that deciding to do day-to-day coverage of an event and applying for press credentials are pretty obvious signs of positioning as journalism.



    There's no irony in questioning the predominantly nasty and petty tone and content of a stream of criticism.
    There are a lot of contradicting ideas here. Jenny and Dave applied for press credentials, so they are press. FSU "has" applied for press but they don't any longer, so they're not press. But "were" they press?

    Regarding irony, I think that a conversation with Jenny and Dave would read much like a typical discussion on FSU. You may disagree, but it seems painfully obvious to me. I don't judge anybody's right to judge, I was merely pointing out that if this sort of critique offends you, I wonder why you actively post and engage in similar discussions here.

    Re: the press issue, FSU does not publish official articles to my knowledge, though many of its members do, and link to them here. FSU does not hold official interviews, though many of its members do, and link to them here. One of the reasons I love FSU is not only because of the colorful posters, but because it is quite frankly the most comprehensive, up-to-date place to find relevant information on figure skating. Whether or not the goals of the creators were to become a part of the media, the truth of the matter is that FSU contains journalistic content. Journalists use FSU as a source. So, it may be unintentional, but FSU does play a role in figure skating media coverage. I'm not saying that TSL and FSU have the same goals, but they are certainly part of the same machine and they are both accessible to the public, including current and past elite skaters.

    Totally off topic, but every time I type 'FSU' my auto correct tries to replace it with 'GAY'

  4. #524

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    With all due respect, you are the one with the contradicting ideas. FSU may be used as a journalistic source, but it doesn't consciously position itself as one. TSL's approach is radically different from that in that it is explicitly trying to be journalism or to be a news source. I don't see how you can't understand that difference if you are as familiar with both, and as familiar with what constitutes journalism, as you claim to be.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  5. #525
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    With all due respect, you are the one with the contradicting ideas. FSU may be used as a journalistic source, but it doesn't consciously position itself as one. TSL's approach is radically different from that in that it is explicitly trying to be journalism or to be a news source. I don't see how you can't understand that difference if you are as familiar with both, and as familiar with what constitutes journalism, as you claim to be.
    Did Dave and Jenny say that they are explicitly trying to be journalism? Your argument was that they are because "why else would the want press passes?" Yet you also admit that FSU has done the same. Therein lies the contradiction.

  6. #526

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    Did Dave and Jenny say that they are explicitly trying to be journalism? Your argument was that they are because "why else would the want press passes?" Yet you also admit that FSU has done the same. Therein lies the contradiction.
    You're defining backwards and that's a nice rhetorical trick but it doesn't always work.

    From The Skating Lesson website " A recent graduate of Boise State University, Jenny has embarked on a new career as a broadcast journalist and is very excited to share others’ stories with you through The Skating Lesson." I assume Jenny wrote this about herself and that's great. It does make clear that Jenny understands that broadcast journalism covers a variety of media including internet broadcast.

    Yes, it's a very specific area of broadcast journalism (in terms of subject covered and media used) but it's broadcast journalism.
    Last edited by Willowway; 09-16-2013 at 12:39 AM.

  7. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willowway View Post
    You're defining backwards and that's a nice rhetorical trick but it doesn't always work.

    From The Skating Lesson website " A recent graduate of Boise State University, Jenny has embarked on a new career as a broadcast journalist and is very excited to share others’ stories with you through The Skating Lesson." I assume Jenny wrote this about herself and that's good.

    Yes, it's a very particular area of broadcast journalism (in terms of subject covered) but it's broadcast journalism.
    As I stated earlier, and others agreed, if she wants to see herself moving forward with a journalistic career, she needs to depart the TSL name (or make some changes). Sure, this may get her somewhere, but if an employer, seeing TSL on her resume, did some work to further familiarize themselves with the TSL content, the tweets will come through. All of the things that Jenny may not have done, will be there under the name that she and Dave created. As I also said, Dave is just using Jenny to get inside the sport, and she's too taken by it to realize what he really is doing.

    I was criticized for looking out for Jenny. Um no, it's an observation. A very real observation. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. If she wants to remain where she is, then good for her, but if she wants to achieve better, she needs to just remember that when you have 2 people tweeting under one entity, there has to be a mutual basis for what crosses the line.

  8. #528

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    Quote Originally Posted by twizzlesizzle View Post
    As I stated earlier, and others agreed, if she wants to see herself moving forward with a journalistic career, she needs to depart the TSL name (or make some changes). Sure, this may get her somewhere, but if an employer, seeing TSL on her resume, did some work to further familiarize themselves with the TSL content, the tweets will come through. All of the things that Jenny may not have done, will be there under the name that she and Dave created. As I also said, Dave is just using Jenny to get inside the sport, and she's too taken by it to realize what he really is doing.

    I was criticized for looking out for Jenny. Um no, it's an observation. A very real observation. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. If she wants to remain where she is, then good for her, but if she wants to achieve better, she needs to just remember that when you have 2 people tweeting under one entity, there has to be a mutual basis for what crosses the line.
    This is ridiculous.

    1. You have no idea what Jenny wants career-wise or what her goals are; you are assuming.
    2. You have ZERO basis for writing (multiple times now) that Dave is using Jenny.
    3. It's condescending (and a total assumption) to say that Jenny doesn't know that she is being "used."

  9. #529
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    But FSU does not present itself as journalism. It's very clearly labeled as a discussion board. Yes, there is news on it, but it is not positioned as a news source. No matter how the definition of journalism has evolved since the Interwebz, FSU is not trying to do what TSL is trying to do. TSL wants to be considered journalism, even if it's a TMZ tye of journalism, and so the basis of comparison for what it does should be what other journalism outlets are doing.
    True, but until a certain incident, the ISU was willing to grant FSU press credentials. FSU never presented itself as anything but a discussion board.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  10. #530
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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    This is ridiculous.

    1. You have no idea what Jenny wants career-wise or what her goals are; you are assuming.
    2. You have ZERO basis for writing (multiple times now) that Dave is using Jenny.
    3. It's condescending (and a total assumption) to say that Jenny doesn't know that she is being "used."
    Hey Dave... Shut up.

    1. I could care less what Jenny does. If she wants to work with someone who has proven he will ridicule athletes to the point of harassment, then that's on her, may she share in whatever he gets as a reward.
    2. Others have agreed with me that she needs to see the light.
    3. It's not condescending when it's the truth.
    Last edited by twizzlesizzle; 09-16-2013 at 01:19 AM.

  11. #531
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    Quote Originally Posted by twizzlesizzle View Post
    Hey Dave... Shut up.

    1. I could care less what Jenny does. If she wants to work with someone who has proven he will ridicule athletes to the point of harassment, then that's on her, may she share in whatever he gets as a reward.
    2. Others have agreed with me that she needs to see the light.
    3. It's not condescending when it's the truth.

    I'd be wary about claiming something as "truth" when you don't know the person. And saying that other people agree with you doesn't make something true. Many people once agreed the earth was flat, but that didn't make it the "truth".

  12. #532

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  13. #533

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    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles View Post
    I'd be wary about claiming something as "truth" when you don't know the person. And saying that other people agree with you doesn't make something true. Many people once agreed the earth was flat, but that didn't make it the "truth".
    First post?

  14. #534
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    Yes.

  15. #535

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    Quote Originally Posted by twizzlesizzle View Post
    Hey Dave... Shut up.
    Your assumption that any poster who doesn't agree with you must be Dave, is getting old fast.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  16. #536
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    When I first heard Dave and Jenny had been denied a credential I was surprised. Frankly, I had just started watching their interviews and while I find some things that happen in their interviews questionable, i have in general found them to be well researched, appropriately provocative, and very interesting. I didn't know anything about Aunt Joyce etc. That said, since their reaction to not getting a press credential I have found their response really immature. And then to read their tweets this week, it is clear to me why they didn't receive a credential. I was really disappointed in the content of their tweets--dye jobs, mocking skaters, sarcastic comments...the absolute lowest brand of commentating. I found this especially disappointing given some of the comments from their interviewees. Ashley Wagner spoke specifically about how mean people were on twitter after nationals. Tim Goeble described Dick Button as vindictive. Well, let's add TSL to the list of mean and vindictive since they have clearly demonstrated themselves to be both. No press credential is necessary to sit and the stands and make snarky comments.

  17. #537
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    I like Dave and Jenny quite a lot. To me, they're the Dick Button/Peggy Flemming for the post-internet age. Is the snark excessive sometimes? Yes. But most of the time, I think they're on the money and, yes, entertaining. Very entertaining. And they certainly do know their stuff. I can't imagine that someone like Frank Carroll would have agreed to a two hour interview with people who were simply the contemporary internet equivalent of "mean girls." Or that said interview would be far more in depth and, yes, entertaining, than any piece I've ever read or watched on traditional journalistic outlets. In a not unimportant way, I think their general irreverence for the sacred cows of the figure skating world has made the figure skaters they've interviewed loosen up and really be honest. Ashley Wagner, for instance, who has been a primary butt of their snark, gave a fantastic interview. Far more interesting and revealing than yet another boilerplate interview from established journalistic outlets. And I have to admit I laughed my head off when they showed just how "jam packed" the stands for journalists actually were in SLC. No room indeed.

    Journalism is in a period of rapid evolution. Rather than trying to follow a traditional path, Jenny and Dave might be smarter to follow a different model. Tom and Lorenzo, who started out as bloggers for Project Runway, might serve as an alternative model. From their small blog, they have built a website generating millions of hits per year, covering not only Project Runway, but celebrity fashion, television dramas (their series of posts analyzing costume design on Mad Men are brilliant pieces of analysis and writing), movie musicals. How successful have they become? Enough for them to quit their daytime jobs and write full-time for their blog. And they're just as snarky as the snarkiest comments from This & That.

    The USFSA is an exceedingly conservative organization (it should tell you something that they are still using the term "Ladies" in 2013, but not the term "Gentlemen"). And in this case, I think they're being shortsighted. So, what else is new, huh?

    YMMV of course.
    Last edited by WeakAnkles; 09-16-2013 at 10:41 AM.

  18. #538

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    Like them or not, Jenny and Dave have created something unusual for FS and I don't think they're going away anytime soon.

    I predict that, sooner or later, USFSA won't be able to deny their presence on the scene and they will be given credentials for future skating events.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  19. #539

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    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles View Post
    Journalism is in a period of rapid evolution. Rather than trying to follow a traditional path, Jenny and Dave might be smarter to follow a different model. Tom and Lorenzo, who started out as bloggers for Project Runway, might serve as an alternative model. From their small blog, they have built a website generating millions of hits per year, covering not only Project Runway, but celebrity fashion, television dramas (their series of posts analyzing costume design on Mad Men are brilliant pieces of analysis and writing), movie musicals. How successful have they become? Enough for them to quit their daytime jobs and write full-time for their blog. And they're just as snarky as the snarkiest comments from This & That.
    Tom & Lorenzo might be getting enough from their blog to quit their jobs, but there are hundreds, if not thousands, of blog authors out there giving celebrity/pop culture snark and not making a penny from it. One blog becoming profitable in that niche doesn't mean that there is room for more.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  20. #540

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    This may already have been said, sorry if so, but it seems that Dave and Jenny's access was severely restricted by their not getting press passes. Yuka Sato seems to be the only interview they got. In light of that, I am not surprised that they made an issue of being denied.

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