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  1. #501

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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    This x 1,000. I thought Jenny was heading big places when she began writing that very insightful blog. Hooking up with Aunt Joyce was the worst thing for her career prospects. Such a shame she's too close to him to realize that.
    Yeah, I've been thinking that too. If she's serious about a journalistic career, she'd be far better off going it alone.
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  2. #502

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    Quote Originally Posted by twizzlesizzle View Post
    TSL is not promoting anything. As others stated, they have their own agenda. Jenny is apparently still stuck over differences with men in her past, and Dave feeds off it (see all the "Lysacek Like" tweets). If Jenny wants to be seen as anything credible in the future in the sport of skating, she needs to fix herself now. She needs to realize that if she wants to make a positive difference in bringing people to the sport, that Dave is NOT going to help her. He's using her to get to the skaters and inside the world itself. THEY share the TSL name. There will be no individual success in this venture. They will either succeed or fail together and it seems Jenny has more to lose than Dave does. If, however, she is naive enough to keep her stance and continue down the TSL path of destruction, eventually, someone will approach her (or them) and tell them they are no longer welcome.

    An after thought... They have the D/W SD on their facebook page, via youtube. This is a video that someone taped off of IN then posted to youtube. Can't imagine that's a legal video!!! HAHAHA.
    Jenny is so lucky to have you looking out for her.

    Have any of you ever read coverage of pretty much any other sport? Including coverage by the revered, highly-ethical "credentialled" media at various tennis matches, football games, basketball games, etc? I can think of many well-known sports journalists who make Dave/Jenny look like teddy bears. These skaters are elite athletes, not children competing in a rec league soccer game. They can handle a little bit of snarky criticism; it's the fans on this board who are behaving paternalistically.

    Re: Zhang and Bartholomay-- I don't see *anything* wrong w/ Dave's tweet. IMO it's actually generous to call that mess a sectional champion program considering how awful they skated and how empty the program is, especially when they miss the high-risk elements. Dave's tweet was a more interesting way of saying "that program is not elite-level."

    Did anyone happen to catch Phil Hersh's tweets yesterday during the ladies' SP? A sampling:

    Philip Hersh ‏ 22h
    All I can say is thank goodness Yuna came back

    Philip Hersh ‏22h
    And I can't believe Zoueva would tolerate all that arm flailing. She looked as if she were wigwagging planes on a landing approach

    Philip Hersh 22h
    Will the figure skating season never end?

    Philip Hersh 23h
    Would someone please stand up in women's SP?

    Philip Hersh 23h
    Literally tens of fans at the U.S. International Skating Classic in SLC. Might be at least 6 who aren't family, other skaters, coaches

    HOW RUDE. What a meanie! How will Hersh ever seem credible when he applies for his press credential for Nationals in Boston?

  3. #503

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    Phil Hersh sending out *sshole tweets does not make it any more acceptable for anyone else trying to brand themselves as journalists to do the same.

    A credentialed and experienced reporter making those sorts of observations is completely unprofessional, IMHO. He spent a lot of his interview with Manleywoman complaining about the disappearance of news coverage of figure skating, but his own insulting the skaters, the event, and the organizers isn't doing a lot to improve the situation.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  4. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    Did anyone happen to catch Phil Hersh's tweets yesterday during the ladies' SP? A sampling:
    You're focusing on just tweets when there's a history of other unprofessional behavior. What does it matter though? I'm sure that everyone Aunt Joyce is encountering at the competition is clamoring to stroke his ego and telling him how fresh and original his catty comments are and what a wonderful job he's doing. And Jenny will probably buy into it.

  5. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by reese View Post
    Jenny is so lucky to have you looking out for her.

    These skaters are elite athletes, not children competing in a rec league soccer game. They can handle a little bit of snarky criticism.
    Some of these skaters at the competition are elite. Not all. Tell me, how many of them are actually NOT teenagers?

    Are they in the lime light of skating at the moment? Yes. Are they still of an impressionable age? Absolutely. It's complete BS to think that their friends and such don't let them know about these tweets, blogs, comments, etc. Jeremy Abbott has stated he's been with a sports psychologist for over 3 years now to help him deal with things just like this.

    The skaters who are not from the USA in this SLC competition are there. They are on the ice, trying. Whether they get 200 points or 2, they are doing it. They feel the pressure, they're scared, be it whatever it is.... The fact that other skaters, journalists, adults are so condescending onto these youngsters, is ludicrous. Why aren't there more skaters lasting longer? Well, the social media abuse today goes a long way.

    Reese... put yourself there, 18 years old, international skating competition in another country than your own, and all you hear is that you shouldn't be on the ice, that you're an embarrassment. You honestly think you can say that you wouldn't have thoughts of hanging it up?

  6. #506
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    Not defending TSL or their tweets at all, but honestly, it is part of sports. All elite athletes in all sports must deal with the naysayers...it comes with the territory. What separates the good from the great is how well they deal with it - do they use it for motivation and get even better, or do they let it mess with their heads? You gotta tune it all out. It's a struggle, yes, but a necessary one.

    Having said that, I don't condone these comments at all.

  7. #507

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    Quote Originally Posted by RD View Post
    All elite athletes in all sports must deal with the naysayers...it comes with the territory. What separates the good from the great is how well they deal with it - do they use it for motivation and get even better, or do they let it mess with their heads? You gotta tune it all out. It's a struggle, yes, but a necessary one.
    Agreed that it comes with the territory, but because of the speed and reach of social media, it can have a much greater negative impact than it ever did. And I wouldn't say that it's the less than great athletes that can't deal with it - some very good athletes have quit their sport because they're tired of putting up with it:
    http://espn.go.com/tennis/story/_/id...-espn-magazine
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  8. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Agreed that it comes with the territory, but because of the speed and reach of social media, it can have a much greater negative impact than it ever did. And I wouldn't say that it's the less than great athletes that can't deal with it - some very good athletes have quit their sport because they're tired of putting up with it:
    http://espn.go.com/tennis/story/_/id...-espn-magazine
    The #slc2013 feed on twitter has been a source of evil, pretty much the whole competition. Gracie had something to say about it: "Although it wasn't my best, I was proud of my fight. It will only go up from here. Thanks to all of my supports and haters"

    TSL, Ann Jensen, and others.... she knows....

  9. #509

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    I do sometimes wonder if it's sort of a myth about athletes dealing well with hecklers and constant negativity. I understand the world is tough and you really need a thick skin. However, some times it really does get over-the-top, and not every athlete has the luxury of being able to buffer themselves from that negativity (by distracting themselves with a support system or maybe a great lifestyle, etc.). I sort of think figure skating is in an interesting position. People are more polite about figure skaters than other fans are with other sports. However, figure skating also attracts a certain...catty demographic that many theatre performers also suffer from (there's a lot of talk in Broadway circles about the constant negativity performers face and how detrimental it is). Of course people are catty and wait to see movie stars and tv stars fail too, but Broadway is a much smaller community and do not have the same luxury lifestyle and distance apart from fans as their tv/movie counter-parts to help with that. Likewise, figure skating is also a smaller sport and a smaller world than many "big" sports. So although they won't face the same volume of negativity by any means, the negativity itself may be felt more because it seems to come from a closer distance.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  10. #510
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    There will always be Negative Nancy's in the world... and the skating community is no different. I'm a firm believer that your words only reflect on you, and it's up to skating fans what they choose to buy into and support.

  11. #511
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    I absolutely loved TSL' s recap videos which had me ROFL several times. Again, I'm ROFL at a lot of the comments here that complain about the negativity in their segments. People, you need to revisit any FSU event thread from the past ten years and you will see far cattier comments about outfits, music, hair, weight, sexuality, you name it. Many skaters in the past have talked about reading threads at this very site and being affected by it. I don't think I had ever even heard the word "snark" before I began posting and reading this site. I lurve FSU and TSL but to come to this very board and be shocked and appalled at harsh critiques is just

  12. #512

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    I absolutely loved TSL' s recap videos which had me ROFL several times. Again, I'm ROFL at a lot of the comments here that complain about the negativity in their segments. People, you need to revisit any FSU event thread from the past ten years and you will see far cattier comments about outfits, music, hair, weight, sexuality, you name it. Many skaters in the past have talked about reading threads at this very site and being affected by it. I don't think I had ever even heard the word "snark" before I began posting and reading this site. I lurve FSU and TSL but to come to this very board and be shocked and appalled at harsh critiques is just
    I guess some people think that a message board and a duo trying to have some journalistic credibility are different. Also, since FSU is pretty heterogeneous, the people complaining about TSL may also be the same ones appalled by some of the PBP threads and cattiness on FSU (even if they don't say it). But someone did bring up a good point about Phil Hersh doing the same thing, but he's very much maligned here too. However, he's had a background in journalism and supposedly professionalism before he got "comfortable." Plus, it helps him that he's one of the only people left who even care to cover figure skating on a regular basis. Some say USFS should take advantage of TSL because of this, but maybe it's telling that the USFS isn't even that desperate . . . yet.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  13. #513
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    Phil Hersh gets in because his newspaper, with its reputation and readership, qualifies for a credential. Were TSL part of a major newspaper -- were Kirk reporting for the LA Times -- it would be a different matter, just as Michael Buckley got into US Nats because Icenetwork sent him.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  14. #514

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    I absolutely loved TSL' s recap videos which had me ROFL several times. Again, I'm ROFL at a lot of the comments here that complain about the negativity in their segments. People, you need to revisit any FSU event thread from the past ten years and you will see far cattier comments about outfits, music, hair, weight, sexuality, you name it. Many skaters in the past have talked about reading threads at this very site and being affected by it. I don't think I had ever even heard the word "snark" before I began posting and reading this site. I lurve FSU and TSL but to come to this very board and be shocked and appalled at harsh critiques is just
    How one equates a message board open to all posters (most are anonymous) and cattiness by two people who aspire to be professional media journalists beats me.

    What I find sort of amazing, and this does not relate just to the poster above, is that people find this cattiness and nastiness (and Aunt Joyce is notable for being nasty not just to the skaters but to their families and non-skaters too) is that some people can never get enough of it as entertainment. From time to time we all laugh (even if we're not proud of ourselves for doing so) at someone else's expense (and someone does pay for it - we just may not know how) and while it does happen, it's not admirable (we tell our children not to do it - or at least I did). But a steady diet of it in print or on line? I'll never get that.

    These are young athletes, working hard and doing their best - we don't have to say they were brilliant when they weren't or that a costume is wonderful when it isn't but there are fair and respectful ways to critique and then there's "I want to be unnecessarily personal and nasty to someone else just to inflate my own sense of myself." One can comment with intelligence and wit on skating, performance and results without that approach. I give TSL the benefit of the doubt and think that they have the skills to take their commentary to a higher level.
    Last edited by Willowway; 09-15-2013 at 06:11 PM.

  15. #515
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    I absolutely loved TSL' s recap videos which had me ROFL several times.
    I have enjoyed many of the TSL segments and appreciate the significant effort that Jenny and Dave are making to deliver their many interviews, so I'd love to see them succeed in their venture. I do not think their coverage of the SLC event furthered that goal, however. In fact, I only watched their day 1 recap and decided not to watch any more not so much because of what they said, but how they said it. Maybe their adrenalin was overflowing from the excitement of reporting from their first competition, but they were far too frenetic to be watchable. They talked over each other, they repeated phrases multiple times ("So here's the thing," "So here's the thing," "So here's the thing") and their on camera mannerisms were excessively frantic (Jenny's shimmying into the camera in particular does not create a professional image). Maybe their delivery improved as the event went on, but that first clip was enough of a turn off that I did not return to find out if it did. Rather than appear as professional commentary, my impression of the clip was as if a spy cam had dropped in on a hen party.

    Jenny and Dave are both capable of delivering intelligent and insightful commentary, as proven in some of their interviews and other segments, and they don't have to be temper everything they say to the point of sounding like a USFSA press release - they could still pepper their commentary with some witty snarks. But right now everything is just too OTT with the result being them coming off as a pair of catty teenagers chatting, and that doesn't particularly appeal to me as a would be viewer.
    "I miss footwork that has any kind of a discernible pattern. The goal of a step sequence should not be for a skater to show the same ice coverage as a Zamboni and take about as much time as an ice resurface. " ~ Zemgirl, reflecting on a pre-IJS straight line sequence

  16. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willowway View Post
    How one equates a message board open to all posters (most are anonymous) and cattiness by two people who aspire to be professional media journalists beats me.

    What I find sort of amazing, and this does not relate just to the poster above, is that people find this cattiness and nastiness (and Aunt Joyce is notable for being nasty not just to the skaters but to their families and non-skaters too) is that some people can never get enough of it as entertainment. From time to time we all laugh (even if we're not proud of ourselves for doing so) at someone else's expense (and someone does pay for it - we just may not know how) and while it does happen, it's not admirable (we tell our children not to do it - or at least I did). But a steady diet of it in print or on line? I'll never get that.

    These are young athletes, working hard and doing their best - we don't have to say they were brilliant when they weren't or that a costume is wonderful when it isn't but there are fair and respectful ways to critique and then there's "I want to be unnecessarily personal and nasty to someone else just to inflate my own sense of myself." One can comment with intelligence and wit on skating, performance and results without that approach. I give TSL the benefit of the doubt and think that they have the skills to take their commentary to a higher level.
    The definition of journalism has changed quite a bit since Al Gore invented this thing called the internet. The conversations that Jenny and Dave are having are right in line with the type of discussions that happen here. The only difference, as you pointed out, is that they have the guts to do it without the shield of an anonymous internet handle. Do we know that their intentions are to become full fledged journalists in the tradition of Hersh and Brennan? I don't think their intentions have been clarified, but if we've been given any hints it seems to me that they are trying to steer clear of what's been done before, as they consider current media coverage to be deficient. What I love most about TSL is that they cover ALL facets of skating. From the silliest choreographic details right down to in-depth technical analysis. I snuck into the press box at Worlds in 2009 and was alarmed at all of the so-called figure skating journalists who knew nothing about what they were covering and had to ask each other silly questions like, "Which one is Yuna and which one is Mao?" When it comes to real information about the sport, I've learned more on this board than I have from reading any article from a professional publication, and skating journalists readily admit that they visit this board for current information. All I'm saying is, when you put information online, it can become source material (credible or not). So perhaps the distinction between what TSL does and what we do here is not so great.

  17. #517

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    But FSU does not present itself as journalism. It's very clearly labeled as a discussion board. Yes, there is news on it, but it is not positioned as a news source. No matter how the definition of journalism has evolved since the Interwebz, FSU is not trying to do what TSL is trying to do. TSL wants to be considered journalism, even if it's a TMZ tye of journalism, and so the basis of comparison for what it does should be what other journalism outlets are doing.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  18. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    But FSU does not present itself as journalism. It's very clearly labeled as a discussion board. Yes, there is news on it, but it is not positioned as a news source. No matter how the definition of journalism has evolved since the Interwebz, FSU is not trying to do what TSL is trying to do. TSL wants to be considered journalism, even if it's a TMZ tye of journalism, and so the basis of comparison for what it does should be what other journalism outlets are doing.
    As I said in my previous post, I don't recall Jenny or Dave stating flat out that journalism is their priority. The only clear goals I have heard them repeatedly state is that they would like to give a platform for skaters to speak honestly and that they would like to promote discussion of any kind about skating. The latter half of that is precisely what FSU seeks to do. Hasn't it been said in this thread that FSU has applied for press passes? Again, the lines aren't so clear.

    In any case, whether the motives be journalistic or not, there is some irony in criticizing others who criticize skaters on a board that is filled with skater critiques.

  19. #519

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    In any case, whether the motives be journalistic or not, there is some irony in criticizing others who criticize skaters on a board that is filled with skater critiques.
    I don't want to get into a protracted argument with you about your argument however...

    Just because a person posts critiques of skaters doesn't mean that person has disqualified themselves from criticizing the tone and personal content of other critiques. All criticism is not the same nor equal - personal cuts, jabs, insults, snideness, etc. are one kind of criticism and not the best kind.

    If your opinion is that all criticism equates with personal insults then you might look at the best of the best (which agreed, is way beyond what anyone in skating is doing or perhaps has ever done) by accessing some of the ballet reviews Arlene Croce wrote years ago for The New Yorker. She taught me a lot about criticism of the arts (and I'll expand that to include skating) by demonstrating that any review, however much she didn't like something, could be direct, separate the artist as person from the individual work, never be gratuitously nasty or nasty at all, and best of all, teach the reader more than he/she/I knew before reading the review. Really quite extraordinary.
    Last edited by Willowway; 09-15-2013 at 09:09 PM.

  20. #520
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    TSL is too self-centered for my liking (he looks really awkward all the time), but I've appreciated aunt joyce's work over the years. He was really the Stephen Colbert of the gym/skating world, so to speak, meaning that I find him a great comedian. Too bad he has gone all serious with TSL and got stuck in the middle. Dave has a nervous personality, is totally into trying boorishly too hard and hasn't got a PC sense, all the things I find tremendously amusing about him.

    I did hear it's quite easy to buy him off. Just give him a media pass and an interview already. He'll say the nicest thing about you. He can't help it. I'm talking to you Gracie.

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