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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suze View Post
    As a twenty-something, I've been taught all my life that successful people do everything to advocate for themselves. "Never take no for an answer" -that kind of thing. Maybe in the eyes of older generations this is a sign of impudence, a wholly undesirable trait - something that amounts to being too forward and feeling self-entitled to demand everything and anything. However, the people I look up to, my role models, are mostly folks who do a lot of self-advocating and don't back down when faced with seemingly insurmountable obstacles.
    Just want to say that sometimes the answer really is "No." I've seen some younger people at work take "Never take No for an answer" to heart, and really eff things up for themselves when they realize that "No" really was the answer. I'm all for self-advocating, but just be sure of the lay of the land before rushing off to self-advocate.

  2. #302
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    About 24 years ago, a young woman who was later to become a very casual acquaintance/friend, went to the World Championships of Gymnastics on the US team. She did very well. She was 4'11" and about 95 pounds with rosy, plump cheeks everyone wanted to pinch (kind of like Irina Slutskaya's) and a judge there told her coach and her that she was overweight and had to lose weight. She did. When she was 47 pounds, she died.

    What is my point? TSL has a section called, "This and That" in which the """""""""journalists"""""""""" make remarks about skaters, sometimes making comments about body-type, weight, etc.

    All it takes is ONE comment to a very young, driven, determined athlete to create a true eating disorder. Jennifer Kirk made a name for herself after skating by writing about her disordered eating. How she can be part of a public forum that publishes criticisms of athletes, their body types, what they look like and wear....

    Well, she should know better than to be party to such a public forum. Aunt Joyce and Ms. Kirk really need to re-evalute what they are doing, why they are doing it and how they are doing it.

    Right now, they are not doing it well.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    I think Jenny and Dave are the TMZ of figure skating.
    This. They fit the "TMZ" profile very well and that's fine. Clearly there seems to be an audience/demand for TMZ-style coverage of skating and if their intent is to serve them, fine by me. That said, they cannot have it both ways - that is, if they wish to be taken seriously as a news outlet and/or journalistic magazine, they need a different approach.

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by PairSk8Fan View Post
    About 24 years ago, a young woman who was later to become a very casual acquaintance/friend, went to the World Championships of Gymnastics on the US team. She did very well. She was 4'11" and about 95 pounds with rosy, plump cheeks everyone wanted to pinch (kind of like Irina Slutskaya's) and a judge there told her coach and her that she was overweight and had to lose weight. She did. When she was 47 pounds, she died.

    What is my point? TSL has a section called, "This and That" in which the """""""""journalists"""""""""" make remarks about skaters, sometimes making comments about body-type, weight, etc.

    All it takes is ONE comment to a very young, driven, determined athlete to create a true eating disorder. Jennifer Kirk made a name for herself after skating by writing about her disordered eating. How she can be part of a public forum that publishes criticisms of athletes, their body types, what they look like and wear....

    Well, she should know better than to be party to such a public forum. Aunt Joyce and Ms. Kirk really need to re-evalute what they are doing, why they are doing it and how they are doing it.

    Right now, they are not doing it well.
    I don't believe the judge can be held responsible for Christy Henrich's anorexia. The whole sport of gymnastics was to blame. If individuals are directly responsible, her coaches and her family are the ones who failed to help prevent what became a fatal disease.

    I agree that given how thin Jenny and Dave both are--Jenny in particular--they should watch the tone of some comments about bodies and weight gain. Some fans-- quite a few of whom I have seen at events eating corn dogs and popcorn by the dozen-- may naturally take offense at any trace of snarkiness coming from people who appear to lack experience with size. I take offense at moments having been fat in adolescence. Little do fans know that Dave Lease is one of the kindest and most accepting people around who would never discriminate against or hurt anyone. Most everything they say is true and any coach will tell you the same things, but probably more diplomatically.

    I think Jenny wants to bring attention to the subject of eating disorders and the psychological challenges athletes face growing up in this sport. That's why she and Dave focus on these tough psychological and life/career management topics with some of their guests. People in the sport only benefit from bringing this into the light. In secrecy is where things like the tragedy of Christy Henrich are more likely to happen.

    Thinness and body are part of the sport--and quite honestly necessary for the sport's aesthetics, and the same is true of fashion. It doesn't make it go away to be politically correct. Judges/coaches are still saying things to young athletes, and pressures are there. TSL is inspired to improve the situation by talking about what's happened and what's going on--the real attitudes and events--in the experiences of athletes..

    They also manage to explore with humor how athletes and coaches have overcome bad things--or at least gotten through them.
    Last edited by TheIronLady; 09-03-2013 at 07:25 PM.

  5. #305
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  6. #306
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    The disucssion of athletes weights makes me a bit twitchy, but I was at least pleased in the last video I saw when they were discussing a skater's weight, that they focused it more on 'elite athlete shape'; and really did differentiate "skater fat" from "actually fat". As in: this girl is incredibly small, and in wonderful shape; most people would kill to have her body. But she is not in 'fighting shape', she is not in her best form as an elite athlete.

    Having seen "Aunt Joyce" make some horrible comments about skaters, I thought, if it has to be discussed, this was a step in the right direction.
    Since Jenny Kirk suffered from disordered eating, I'm surprised they do discuss it at all though.

  7. #307
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    I still can't get over the story of Christy Henrich. When you read about, you can see how necessary awareness is. It was the saddest tragedy because I do not believe it would have happened today. The parents and coaches did not have the awareness or the medical knowledge to help them recognize and deal with it. The sport was just starting to deal with it. The pendulum had swung so far toward ED-promotion in terms of that sport's standards.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    Since Jenny Kirk suffered from disordered eating, I'm surprised they do discuss it at all though.
    I think it's a fallacy to think just because someone had/has an eating disorder, they are more likely to be sensitive about the issue. A lot of times, people who've had eating disorders are the worst culprits for passing along harmful body image messages.

    Not saying anything about Kirk in particular--only that in general, sometimes the worst critics are they very people who are disordered in their eating (now or in the past).

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    They are going anyway. I believe a sponsor is financing it.

    Why are you so argumentative about semantics? Obviously my telling you I don't have room for you in my car because I have four other people already in it is not the same thing as my telling you don't meet the requirements to be able to sit in my car because you are too tall to ever fit. The USFSA told them the former.
    It's not semantics, it's part of the accreditation policy. There has to be enough space in the press area to accommodate the request.
    We live in an ageist society where everything is based on youth, but I hated being 18. I don't like teenagers any more now than I did then. I'm 49 now and there is no way that I'd go back to my teens and 20s - even if I knew what I know now, I don't want to go through all that again. I found it a very difficult time. - Buzz Osborne of the Melvins

  10. #310

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    Quote Originally Posted by sap5 View Post
    Just want to say that sometimes the answer really is "No." I've seen some younger people at work take "Never take No for an answer" to heart, and really eff things up for themselves when they realize that "No" really was the answer. I'm all for self-advocating, but just be sure of the lay of the land before rushing off to self-advocate.
    Plus, there are ways to respond to "no" that don't involve public whining and .
    We live in an ageist society where everything is based on youth, but I hated being 18. I don't like teenagers any more now than I did then. I'm 49 now and there is no way that I'd go back to my teens and 20s - even if I knew what I know now, I don't want to go through all that again. I found it a very difficult time. - Buzz Osborne of the Melvins

  11. #311
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    So not only have Kirk and Lease been extremely unprofessional in asking their fans to e-mail USFS (instead of taking it on the chin and trying to eventually win USFS over by producing high quality content) but they have now been revealed to have used other people's/companies' material without asking for permission first. If they want to be seen as a legitimate news outlet, they could start with acting like one.
    Last edited by Ziggy; 09-04-2013 at 12:35 AM.

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oreo View Post
    I know Jenny was working on a degree in broadcast journalism (UCLA?)
    A recent graduate of Boise State University, Jenny has embarked on a new career as a broadcast journalist and is very excited to share others’ stories with you through The Skating Lesson.
    http://www.theskatinglesson.com/about/jenny-kirk/

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    Plus, there are ways to respond to "no" that don't involve public whining and .
    I can see your reference to them not meeting "requirements" was bull feathers. Rather the above is probably your only relevant opinion and the basis for your arguing with me.
    Last edited by TheIronLady; 09-04-2013 at 12:12 AM.

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    So not only have Kirk and Lease been extremely unprofessional in asking their fans to e-mail USFS (instead of taking it on the chin and trying to eventually win USFS over by producing high quality content) but they have now been revealed to have used other people's/companies' material without asking for permission first. Zero sympathy.
    You are offended because they used--sparingly I might point out-- some videos available on YouTube? That seems patently ridiculous because TSL is not making profit off these videos. You want them to be paying royalties (to whom?) for short clips when they are not even a profit generating business at this time?

    I understand the point about asking permission, but why would fans want to obstruct creative people trying to feature skating on the internet over a trivial and legalistic matter such as snippets of YouTube clips?
    Last edited by TheIronLady; 09-04-2013 at 12:42 AM.

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    You are offended because they used--sparingly I might point out-- some videos available on YouTube? That seems patently ridiculous because TSL is not making profit off these videos. You want them to be paying royalties (to whom?) for short clips when they are not even a profit generating business at this time?
    If you want to use somebody else's work, you ask.

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    You are offended because they used--sparingly I might point out-- some videos available on YouTube? That seems patently ridiculous because TSL is not making profit off these videos. You want them to be paying royalties (to whom?) for short clips when they are not even a profit generating business at this time?
    Actually, they are making money. It's in the form of donations, and even apparently a financed trip to SLC. I wonder, is TSL filed under a 501c3 for a non-profit organization? For donations, don't you have to be registered with the government to get that money? I mean, if people are foolishly going to give these 2 anything more than their .02 cents worth, I'd want to be able to write it off on my taxes!!!! I wonder...

  17. #317

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    "You want them to be paying royalties (to whom?) for short clips when they are not even a profit generating business at this time?"

    Maybe yes. I certainly want them to acknowledge the work of others and ask for permission where possible (we appear to have a perfect example of not doing that right here in this thread). And we should wait for them to tell the world that they've turned a profit before expecting them to respect the rights of others? If you play with the books enough, you can never turn a profit but still make money - if the Hollywood system has taught us nothing else, it has taught us that one.

    I'm not saying that they're making a dime at this point - surely they aren't. But they also don't appear to take a very professional approach to use of videos. If they respect others' rights then others will respect them - they really need to take a hard look at their operating model if they want to make anything professional of TSL in the longer term.

    Thanks Ziggy for drawing the bottom on this issue ,"If you want to use somebody else's work, you ask."
    Last edited by Willowway; 09-04-2013 at 01:10 AM.

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by twizzlesizzle View Post
    Actually, they are making money. It's in the form of donations, and even apparently a financed trip to SLC. I wonder, is TSL filed under a 501c3 for a non-profit organization? For donations, don't you have to be registered with the government to get that money? I mean, if people are foolishly going to give these 2 anything more than their .02 cents worth, I'd want to be able to write it off on my taxes!!!! I wonder...
    Why are you so surly and malicious I wonder. At the end of the day it is about skating--a sport I love and want to see remain popular. I think Jenny Kirk and Dave do a great job of showcasing the stars who gladly donate time to them.

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willowway View Post
    "You want them to be paying royalties (to whom?) for short clips when they are not even a profit generating business at this time?"

    Maybe yes. I certainly want them to acknowledge the work of others and ask for permission where possible (we appear to have a perfect example of not doing that right here in this thread). And we should wait for them to tell the world that they've turned a profit before expecting them to respect the rights of others? If you play with the books enough, you can never turn a profit but still make money - if the Hollywood system has taught us nothing else, it has taught us that one.

    I'm not saying that they're making a dime at this point - surely they aren't. But they also don't appear to take a very professional approach to use of videos. If they respect others' rights then others will respect them - they really need to take a hard look at their operating model if they want to make anything professional of TSL in the longer term.

    Thanks Ziggy for drawing the bottom on this issue ,"If you want to use somebody else's work, you ask."
    I did a little searching about "donations via websites" and someone had asked a question about if they put a donate button up, would it need to be reported:

    "A "donation" button may lead people to think that it might be tax deductible for them to donate so you have to be clear that your are not a 501(c(3)) entity and that donations are not tax deductible. There is nothing illegal about asking people to donate money. The illegality comes from fraud or misrepresentation.

    Now, if you are going to use a mode such as this for "earning" money, you need to be very scrupulous in your record keeping and report all money received either on your Schedule C (assuming you are a sole-proprietorship) or other business tax form (1065, 1120-S etc). I you are none of these, then this gets entered on the front of your Form 1040, line 21 (at least on this year's form).

    Receiving solicited donations constitutes income and not a "gift". the IRS will also consider it as income."

    So... who's gonna claim the money and the trip?

  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    Why are you so surly and malicious I wonder. At the end of the day it is about skating--a sport I love and want to see remain popular. I think Jenny Kirk and Dave do a great job of showcasing the stars who gladly donate time to them.
    Why are you so naive? Whether Jenny and Dave are there or not, the sport will continue on. Yes, they can have "moments" where they are semi-decent at interviewing, but when you interview Jeremy Abbott and then come back and blast him in this past episode about his comments on the Russian Olympic stuff, it's two-faced. Tell me why Jeremy would want to go back to the show after what was said? Also, Ironlady, are you Jenny in disguise?

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