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  1. #221
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    Phil Hersh was a French major.

  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by valyrian View Post
    I'm torn about this.

    On the one hand, I am no fan of TSL. Dave Lease spent years on Aunt Joyce saying incredibly horrible things about figure skaters and gymnasts, most of whom were underage - he'd tell people to develop eating disorders, things like that. TSL isn't as awful, but the "snark" (really, rudeness masquerading as 'honesty') in This and That really needs to be toned down.

    On the other hand, TSL is obviously very popular (for a given value of "very") among skating fans, and it already has a solid reputation for exclusive interviews. As far as I know, it's the only non-USFSA media source dedicated to figure skating, and blogs/podcasts are an important part of the modern media landscape. Skaters seem to trust them, and they ask questions that Icenetwork doesn't think of. Monopolizing the skating media market and refusing to integrate modern media trends into coverage seems like a poor way to expand the sport's fanbase.

    If TSL had more staff and were more professional I'd say give them the accreditation in a heartbeat, but as of right now...? I'd go either way.
    Agree with this post, as am "torn" as well. I thought it was peculiar and a bit of a sign of immaturity, when they were gushing about how they were surprised to learn that they might quality for media credentials during a podcast a number of weeks back. It is at moments such as these that they get very SELF-indulgent, and the overall profile of TSL asserts itself to be as much about Jenny and Dave, as it is about the skaters.

    Jenny and Dave like to pepper their This & That comments with comments which insinuate that they have knowledgeable "spies" at various rinks, and yet, they seem willing to trust such sources in ways that a true journalist would probably not. People providing "leaks" to TSL are likely doing so with their own agendas in mind. Accepting such interpretations as "fact" has made for plenty of misinterpretations which truly do not serve some of the skaters that they comment on, well.

    I was pretty dismayed by the comments that Jenny made about Christina Gao's skating at Cranberry. She resorted to her fall-back dig at Angela Nikodinov (doubling her triples in the latter part of the program) when making critical remarks about Christina's skate at a time when it was known (the This & That taping) that Christina was wearing a boot cast at Champs Camp (precautionary, but still, potentially part of their plan to put out a program without all of the more demanding triples - flip/lutz - which Christina is known to have a firm handle on, but did not put out during the Cranberry skate).

    Bottom line - media seems to be in transition, but it seems to serve the "fans" better than the skaters, to be associated with TSL. I frankly don't see ANY reason why a top skater would want to link themselves with the kind of snarky, inconsistent, unpredictable commentators that Jenny and Dave are proving themselves to be (and in Dave's case, have long proven themselves to be); except to invoke the adage (which Ashley explicitly did in her interview), to keep your friends close and your 'enemies' closer.

  3. #223

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    There are some interesting and valid discussion about rules, regulations, qualification, ethics in journalism/press, professional conduct, out dated media management etc. but I do they are all missing the point. The lack of space is a red herring. It comes down to a simple case whether USFSA approves TSL or disapprove it. It is a clear attempt of censorship and putting a boundary on accessibility and freedom of press. If they like them, they will find space for them. If they don't like them they will come up with crap excuses to NOT let them in. This time is about 'lack of space', next time will be something else. That is why from the very beginning I suspected they must have p**sed of someone on the inner circle. TSL's latest reaction piece would seem to support this reason with some screen capture evidence Dave even manage to frame. It is totally juvenile, totally hilarious and very web 3.0. (Arguably it is their greatest asset that makes them relevant. Even how we are discussing them here on FSU with quality posts actually add great relevance to them.) In a way TSL had it coming for a while with their Gorilla style of reporting, lack of self censorship. knee jerk reaction analysis and biased personal opinions. There are clearly some bad blood with the administrators spilled over.

    Put it this way, if let's say Michelle Kwan decide to team up with Perez Hilton tomorrow to cover US figure skating, not having an office, a website, or have wrote a piece, do you think USFSA would seriously turn them down using such crap excuse, or will they able to find some space for them some where, Or how about say 2 kiddie budding journalist age 12 and 13 who are both skaters themselves who writes for a famous high school news paper and have a blog that has a small cult following and have only ever been complementary to US skaters, do you think they will be turned down?

    Actually the fact TSL having been turned down by the regime bureaucrats is probably the best thing ever happen to them. It lend them great street cred and boosted their profile considerably to be the leading independent voices among all the political correctness PR friendly 'journalism' powerful federations / sport agency like IMG probably want to try to control as much as possible. You don't have to like what they say, you don't even have to agree with what they say (I often don't), but in a healthy open society there should be views from all side, just like a healthy discussion forum. The 'Dave' and Goliath impression i get from all this is very appealing, and I can't help but want to support the underdog more.

  4. #224
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    But, they haven't been repressed at all. They are totally free to continue to do what they do. They just didn't get to wear a press badge and get into the press room at this one event. Based on their format, I'm not sure why they wanted to except it gives them greater credentials to ask for people to send money to support their venture. Other than that, USFSA in no way has prevented them from doing what they've been doing at all. They can still Skype from their bedrooms. They can still show other peoples YouTube videos on their own video and talk about them. They can snark away (I have no problems with the snark---much of it comes from FSU anyway ). They can Skype with willing skaters from the skaters bedrooms. They can carry on. They just don't get the cookies and flan this time, but they can buy their own damn cookies and Skype away.
    Last edited by rfisher; 08-31-2013 at 01:45 PM.
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  5. #225

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    One of the reasons I wouldn't have minded TSL going in a press capacity to SLC?

    As an Australian, I can access TSL. Anywhere, anytime. No login, no payment, no IP address checking.

    As an Australian, I cannot always access IceNetwork videos, even if I pay out $50 (more actually because AUD vs USD is not so great right now). I won't get to see anything from SLC via IN. No interviews, no skates, no nothing, not even on-demand.

    Some outside-the-US thinking might be useful here...

  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by rosewood View Post
    I have a simple question that TSL has any permissions to use those videos of skaters' performance,
    I've wondered when someone would bring this topic up. My guess is no, they don't have permission, but it's a guess. If they are using the clips without permission, I hardly doubt the networks care enough to hunt them down though. As a fan of TSL though, I wish they would cease using the videoclips, just to protect themselves from any potential pissy non-fans who might be looking for a way to cause trouble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Habs View Post
    It seems fairly simple to me - they aren't media and therefore won't be given media accreditation and privileges. I'm not sure what the fuss is about.
    This 100%

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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    I've wondered when someone would bring this topic up. My guess is no, they don't have permission, but it's a guess. If they are using the clips without permission, I hardly doubt the networks care enough to hunt them down though. As a fan of TSL though, I wish they would cease using the videoclips, just to protect themselves from any potential pissy non-fans who might be looking for a way to cause trouble.
    They should be able to use clips as "fair use," shouldn't they?

  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    They should be able to use clips as "fair use," shouldn't they?
    They aren't using them for educational use or parody, so I don't know why they would get them fair use. They likely aren't making a profit, but they are soliciting money, so I think they could be called commercial.

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    "Fair use" is complicated, but I think it only applies to use of material from the original source. If an entire copyrighted video is being posted online without the original copyright holder's permission, I don't think "fair use" applies to taking parts from that illegally posted video.

    I think there is also an element of "fair use" that speaks to using the excerpted material for personal profit, rather than for general discussion or enlightenment.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  11. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eislauffan View Post
    Interesting. What's behind this decision? Is there really a space problem? Was USFSA flooded with media requests? Or do they think this is a competitor for Icenetwork? Or is this channel is not regarded as a professional media? Obviously TLS still can go to Salt Lake and do their interviews in the hotel or whereever, they don't need to be at press conferences (if there are any). But I understand that they are frustrated not to be officially recognized as media.
    First off, I've been a long time viewer, but I've had to come out and speak on this.

    Jenny and Dave getting denied due to space is plausible. If there's only so much room, they can only give out so many passes. Also, look at the timing. If they just applied a few weeks ago and other outlets applied long ago, there just may have been none left. Also, with Ice Network, yes, this may be a threat. Jenny and Dave openly posted that they had the purpose of going to SLC to give the viewers a behind the scenes look at a competition:

    "We had lined up many interviews with athletes and coaches and planned to provide a unique behind-the-scenes look for our viewers."

    Well, last year NBC/Ice Network started putting that new "backstage" camera in an area where you saw the skaters and coaches. The fact that they wanted to openly go beyond what a media credential can be used for, obviously opened some eyes, but wasn't a "deciding" factor.

    Then, once they were denied, instead of acting like professionals, they acted like 2 year olds. They put the denial letter out in its full glory with all the numbers, emails and other contact info. Instead of just admitting that they weren't able to obtain one and try again next time, they took the road of "everybody go at the USFS with all you got, to get us our way". Well, IMHO, they're lucky they didn't get themselves blacklisted from the sport. As others here have said, you can't go asking for permission for things from a group, then blast that organization when you don't get your way, but then try to have "supporters" blast the organization and then still hope to get things from them in the future. They didn't do themselves any favors when they made that middle school mentality decision.

    As for TSL itself, it's 2 people, in 2 different locations who sit down 1 or 2x a week and make a video blog. As the rules stand, TSL doesn't meet nearly anything to even qualify for a credential. For 2 "professionals" on the sport, they sure don't act like it. Jenny Kirk is a former pro skater, she honestly should know better than to be bringing skaters personal lives into their shows.

    TSL definitely gained publicity through this stunt. Whether it was positive or negative, is for everyone to judge, but to me, this was negative. You want to bring new, younger people to the sport? Find a way to do it that you are objectively showing the POSITIVES of the sport. The more you have Jenny and Dave going on about the "train wreck" of this program or that skaters choreography, or the constant bashing week in and week out of stars who are attempting to make comebacks... All you do is put a negative spin on things. Jenny Kirk also needs to realize that her past personal life isn't what people want to hear about.

    TSL has made a name for themselves, and like I stated earlier, they DID have a plan for SLC. They weren't just going to simply do the normal press things, they were going to do a behind the scenes "be nosy" and bother skaters in places that they shouldn't. I'm sure that the USFS wants to promote the sport and bring in new blood just as bad as they do, but the way TSL is going about it is NOT the way to go and the USFS will continue to monitor this now. Ya know, since they've received probably thousands of email "hate" mail and negative phone calls about this non-issue of rule compliance.

  12. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    There are some interesting and valid discussion about rules, regulations, qualification, ethics in journalism/press, professional conduct, out dated media management etc. but I do they are all missing the point. The lack of space is a red herring. It comes down to a simple case whether USFSA approves TSL or disapprove it. It is a clear attempt of censorship and putting a boundary on accessibility and freedom of press. If they like them, they will find space for them. If they don't like them they will come up with crap excuses to NOT let them in. This time is about 'lack of space', next time will be something else. That is why from the very beginning I suspected they must have p**sed of someone on the inner circle. TSL's latest reaction piece would seem to support this reason with some screen capture evidence Dave even manage to frame. It is totally juvenile, totally hilarious and very web 3.0. (Arguably it is their greatest asset that makes them relevant. Even how we are discussing them here on FSU with quality posts actually add great relevance to them.) In a way TSL had it coming for a while with their Gorilla style of reporting, lack of self censorship. knee jerk reaction analysis and biased personal opinions. There are clearly some bad blood with the administrators spilled over.
    As I have bolded in your post, this comment is key. Take into account what I posted from Jenny and Dave that they: We had lined up many interviews with athletes and coaches and planned to provide a unique behind-the-scenes look for our viewers.

    The USFS may very well NOT want people filming behind the scenes, where their cameras are present. It's the opening competition for many of these skaters and having TSL getting in their faces for a "behind the scenes" would be a major distraction. This is the USFSA protecting their interests as well as their IceNetwork coverage (which there is a backstage camera location). TSL had other objectives besides just interviewing skaters, and the USFSA knew it and acted accordingly.

  13. #233

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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    "Fair use" is complicated, but I think it only applies to use of material from the original source. If an entire copyrighted video is being posted online without the original copyright holder's permission, I don't think "fair use" applies to taking parts from that illegally posted video.

    I think there is also an element of "fair use" that speaks to using the excerpted material for personal profit, rather than for general discussion or enlightenment.
    If it's copyrighted, it's copyrighted no matter who disseminated it and the same defenses apply. Commercial use is only one of the factors. Short clips from copyrighted videos for the purpose of commentary likely constitute fair use.

  14. #234

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    Quote Originally Posted by twizzlesizzle View Post
    As I have bolded in your post, this comment is key. Take into account what I posted from Jenny and Dave that they: We had lined up many interviews with athletes and coaches and planned to provide a unique behind-the-scenes look for our viewers.

    The USFS may very well NOT want people filming behind the scenes, where their cameras are present. It's the opening competition for many of these skaters and having TSL getting in their faces for a "behind the scenes" would be a major distraction. This is the USFSA protecting their interests as well as their IceNetwork coverage (which there is a backstage camera location). TSL had other objectives besides just interviewing skaters, and the USFSA knew it and acted accordingly.
    What you said may be true, but this can easily be better handled with a gentle talk of the rules and etiquette behind the scene, or better explanation. Media handling is all about managing expectations and better communication. Including what to do and what not to do. I hardly think Dave and Jenny are some media terrorist who should be denied at immigration for no room for your sorts type of excuse. Had USFSA word the reason better and sound more legit with proven facts and examples, I expect the reaction... or over reaction on TSL's parts would be entirely different. In any case i hope it will be water under the bridge for both their sake if their goals are truly about what is good for figure skating PR wise and move forward.

    Something I wonder actually... do USFSA get a cut of the fee made from ice network as part of its exclusivity license agreement?

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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    What you said may be true, but this can easily be better handled with a gentle talk of the rules and etiquette behind the scene, or better explanation. Media handling is all about managing expectations and better communication. Including what to do and what not to do. I hardly think Dave and Jenny are some media terrorist who should be denied at immigration for no room for your sorts type of excuse. Had USFSA word the reason better and sound more legit with proven facts and examples, I expect the reaction... or over reaction on TSL's parts would be entirely different. In any case i hope it will be water under the bridge for both their sake if their goals are truly about what is good for figure skating PR wise and move forward.

    Something I wonder actually... do USFSA get a cut of the fee made from ice network as part of its exclusivity license agreement?
    I don't know if the USFSA gets a cut, but Ice Network isn't doing a free broadcast of SLC. So anything they'd be showing, you'd have to pay to see. Well, with Jenny and Dave with their plan to go behind the scenes and such, they could easily do all work that ice network has done and then go back to their hotel and upload it to youtube, showing you everything for FREE, whereas Ice Network wants you to pay.

    Will this be any different than someone just iphone taping in the audience? no, but Jenny and Dave made it known ahead of time, with an active application for a media pass, what their intentions were. Hence, some backing for the denial.

    Remember, $$$ talks.

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    A press pass allows anyone with one to tape a competition and publish the tape?
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

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    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    If it's copyrighted, it's copyrighted no matter who disseminated it and the same defenses apply. Commercial use is only one of the factors. Short clips from copyrighted videos for the purpose of commentary likely constitute fair use.
    "Likely"? From what I understand of "fair use" doctrine in the US, it doesn't include use of copyrighted material that was originally disseminated without the permission of the copyright holder. So if something is posted on YouTube that violates copyright, any subsequent use of that may not be considered "fair use".
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    A press pass allows anyone with one to tape a competition and publish the tape?
    If you're Dave and Jenny, apparently, yes. They wanted to post everything as soon as they got back in for the night on their tsl blog. They wanted to post clips of programs, interviews and the "behind the scenes" basically as it happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twizzlesizzle View Post
    Then, once they were denied, instead of acting like professionals, they acted like 2 year olds. They put the denial letter out in its full glory with all the numbers, emails and other contact info. Instead of just admitting that they weren't able to obtain one and try again next time, they took the road of "everybody go at the USFS with all you got, to get us our way". Well, IMHO, they're lucky they didn't get themselves blacklisted from the sport. As others here have said, you can't go asking for permission for things from a group, then blast that organization when you don't get your way, but then try to have "supporters" blast the organization and then still hope to get things from them in the future. They didn't do themselves any favors when they made that middle school mentality decision.

    As for TSL itself, it's 2 people, in 2 different locations who sit down 1 or 2x a week and make a video blog. As the rules stand, TSL doesn't meet nearly anything to even qualify for a credential. For 2 "professionals" on the sport, they sure don't act like it. Jenny Kirk is a former pro skater, she honestly should know better than to be bringing skaters personal lives into their shows.

    TSL definitely gained publicity through this stunt. Whether it was positive or negative, is for everyone to judge, but to me, this was negative. You want to bring new, younger people to the sport? Find a way to do it that you are objectively showing the POSITIVES of the sport. The more you have Jenny and Dave going on about the "train wreck" of this program or that skaters choreography, or the constant bashing week in and week out of stars who are attempting to make comebacks... All you do is put a negative spin on things. Jenny Kirk also needs to realize that her past personal life isn't what people want to hear about.

    TSL has made a name for themselves, and like I stated earlier, they DID have a plan for SLC. They weren't just going to simply do the normal press things, they were going to do a behind the scenes "be nosy" and bother skaters in places that they shouldn't. I'm sure that the USFS wants to promote the sport and bring in new blood just as bad as they do, but the way TSL is going about it is NOT the way to go and the USFS will continue to monitor this now. Ya know, since they've received probably thousands of email "hate" mail and negative phone calls about this non-issue of rule compliance.
    Exactly. Jenny and Dave need to grow up and realize: 1) Disappointment happens and you need to move on, and 2) Unfairness (whether real or just your perception) happens and you need to move on. I REALLY wished they had taken a couple of days or week to process things instead of the reaction they had. Now I am wondering if any current skaters are going to want to do interviews with them.

    I can see why TSL wouldn't get a media credential. They don't really do reporting like media does, not even on a web based level like Huffington Post. And the SLC event is a small event - it's not close to an event like Skate America, much less Nationals. Maybe space is really limited. And I wonder if they would just be a distraction in a part of the competition that can be intense for skaters and coaches. For what they are wanting to do, doing interviews at the hotels would probably be better anyway.

    Between where their "This and That" episodes have been going in tone and this past week, I can't see TSL heading in a positive direction unless some changes happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twizzlesizzle View Post
    If you're Dave and Jenny, apparently, yes. They wanted to post everything as soon as they got back in for the night on their tsl blog. They wanted to post clips of programs, interviews and the "behind the scenes" basically as it happens.
    Clips of programs are not tapes of the competition, and it's possible they'd be legally entitled to use short clips from IN in their commentary regardless of whether IN grants permission, since quantity is one of the legal measures. Any interviews and "behind the scenes" would be their own footage, for which they'd need access, and that is what is effectively blocked by not having press passes.

    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    "Likely"? From what I understand of "fair use" doctrine in the US, it doesn't include use of copyrighted material that was originally disseminated without the permission of the copyright holder. So if something is posted on YouTube that violates copyright, any subsequent use of that may not be considered "fair use".
    I don't see that addressed at all on the Stanford University site dedicated to copyright and fair use, although I may have missed it. From what I can glean from the site, there's so much gray area and court interpretation that anyone can sue anything for whatever reason, and the sued may never recover the cost of the defense.

    Here's a link to the "Fair Use" principles on the site:
    http://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview.../four-factors/

    It would be interesting for Japanese TV to claim that they had any financial loss, but if they pressed Kirk and Lease, they might have little case if they haven't pursued it with YouTube to have the clips removed from the source. A example of the opposite is the Balanchine Trust makes it a point to have every clip of Balanchine ballets removed ASAP, and they've established to any court that they take swift and consistent measures against copyright infringement.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

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