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  1. #61
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    Lambiel lost bronze to Takahashi by less than a point even with about 6 mistakes, and gold by only about 10 points. Skating cleanly not only would he have crushed Takahashi, but would have easily won gold over Lysacek and Plushenko too.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by itoaxel View Post
    Lambiel lost bronze to Takahashi by less than a point even with about 6 mistakes, and gold by only about 10 points. Skating cleanly not only would he have crushed Takahashi, but would have easily won gold over Lysacek and Plushenko too.
    While I agree that Lambiel would've won if skating clean (I thought Euros tipped the hand there), it's not as if Takahashi was clean in Vancouver either. A clean Takahashi would've easily scored 10-15 points higher.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    While I agree that Lambiel would've won if skating clean (I thought Euros tipped the hand there), it's not as if Takahashi was clean in Vancouver either. A clean Takahashi would've easily scored 10-15 points higher.
    I know. I do think Lambiel made many more worth of mistakes than Takahashi though. Takahashi only had his fall on an underrotated quad and one other UR call. Lambiel had numerous mistakes in both programs, especialy the long. I think if both skated cleanly Lambiel would be gold and Takahashi silver.

    Either way that doesnt matter since the post I posted after I thought meant was saying even if Lambiel skated cleanly and the rest of the event was skated exactly as it is he would have still been 4th behind Takahashi and that is proposterous. I might have been misinterpreting though.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    Albertville Olympics

    Pairs Gold- Mishkutenok and Dmitriev
    Pairs Silver- Brasseur and Eisler
    Pairs Bronze- Bechke and Petrov

    Mens Gold- Viktor Petrenko
    Mens Silver- Kurt Browning
    Mens Bronze- Petr Barna

    Ladies Gold- Midori Ito
    Ladies Silver- Kristi Yamaguchi
    Ladies Bronze- Tonya Harding


    Lillehammer 2 year only Olympaid

    Pairs Gold- Gordeeva and Grinkov
    Pairs Silver- Mishkutenok and Dmitriev
    Pairs Bronze- Brasseur and Eisler


    Mens Gold- Viktor Petrenko
    Mens Silver- Kurt Browning
    Mens Bronze- Elvis Stojko


    Ladies Gold- Chen Lu
    Ladies Silver- Yuka Sato
    Ladies Bronze- Oksana Baiul


    Nagano Olympics

    Pairs Gold- Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze
    Pairs Silver- Woetzel and Steuer
    Pairs Bronze- Kazakova and Dmitriev


    Mens Gold- Elvis Stojko
    Mens Silver- Ilia Kulik
    Mens Bronze- Todd Eldredge


    Ladies Gold- Tara Lipinski
    Ladies Silver- Michelle Kwan
    Ladies Bronze- Maria Butyrskaya


    Salt Lake City Olympics

    Pairs Gold- Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze
    Pairs Silver- Sale and Pelletier
    Pairs Bronze- Shen and Zhao


    Mens Gold- Alexei Yagudin
    Mens Silver- Evgeni Plushenko
    Mens Bronze- Timothy Goebel


    Ladies Gold- Michelle Kwan
    Ladies Silver- Irina Slutskaya
    Ladies Bronze- Sarah Hughes


    Turin(0) Olympics

    Pairs Gold- Totmianina and Marinin
    Pairs Silver- Shen and Zhao
    Pairs Bronze- Zhangs


    Mens Gold- Evgeni Plushenko
    Mens Silver- Stephane Lambiel
    Mens Bronze- Jeffrey Buttle


    Ladies Gold- Irina Slutskaya
    Ladies Silver- Shizuka Arakawa
    Ladies Bronze- Sasha Cohen


    Vancouver Olympics


    Pairs Gold- Shen and Zhao
    Pairs Silver- Savchenko and Szolkowy
    Pairs Bronze- Kavaguti and Smirnov


    Mens Gold- Stephane Lambiel
    Mens Silver- Daisuke Takahashi
    Mens Bronze- Evgeni Plushenko


    Ladies Gold- Yu-Na Kim
    Ladies Silver- Mao Asada
    Ladies Bronze- Joannie Rochette
    Your Vancouver Men's was NOT FAIR!! I adore Stephane Lambiel, but the OWG was not the first time he's had trouble with the triple axel!! It has NEVER been his friend, so skating it cleanly was out of the question. It isn't like he had one bad skate with it. So this poll is 'what if everyone skated perfectly. Not to the best of THEIR abilities. Okay, in THAT case, everyone wins!! And I do NOT agree that Dai, although I love him, would have ever beat a clean Plushenko. I think if we are getting rid of errors, we should also reslove injuiries. Hands down, uninjured, Plausheko walks with another OGM.

  5. #65
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    Lambiel wasnt even attempting the triple axel. He didnt even need it to win over quadless Evan either however.

    As for Takahashi not beating a clean Plushenko, keep dreaming. Lysacek even beat a clean Plushenko. Takahashi with a quad and much better artistry than both would have cakewalked to the Vancouver gold. His PCS even with the big fall and other mistakes was higher than Lysacek and Plushenko, and his base value with a clean skate was higher. A judge was interviewed after the event and stated had Takahashi skated cleanly he definitely would have won in Vancouver as he was everything the judges were looking for in a mens champion.

    There are probably tons of guys who would have beaten Lysacek and Plushenko in Vancouver had they skated cleanly, not just Lambiel and Takahashi. Some Plushenko fans seem to be living in a time warp and thinking 2010 was still 2006, which in the aftermath of the actual result (which I disagreed with in Evan winning btw, but that is aside the point) is quite unbelievable. Either way the fact a quadless Lysacek won the gold, when even Lysacek with quads is easily beatable by a horde of potentially superior skaters (Lambiel, Takahashi, Chan, Abbott at this best, a few others) proves a ton of guys could have won the gold in Vancouver skating cleanly. Lambiel and Takahahi most likely the top 2 in either order in that case however.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    Albertville Olympics

    Pairs Gold- Mishkutenok and Dmitriev
    Pairs Silver- Brasseur and Eisler
    Pairs Bronze- Bechke and Petrov

    Mens Gold- Viktor Petrenko
    Mens Silver- Kurt Browning
    Mens Bronze- Petr Barna

    Ladies Gold- Midori Ito
    Ladies Silver- Kristi Yamaguchi
    Ladies Bronze- Tonya Harding


    Lillehammer 2 year only Olympaid

    Pairs Gold- Gordeeva and Grinkov
    Pairs Silver- Mishkutenok and Dmitriev
    Pairs Bronze- Brasseur and Eisler


    Mens Gold- Viktor Petrenko
    Mens Silver- Kurt Browning
    Mens Bronze- Alexei Urmanov or Brian Boitano or Scott Davis


    Ladies Gold- Yuka Sato
    Ladies Silver- Oksana Baiul
    Ladies Bronze- Surya Bonaly



    Nagano Olympics

    Pairs Gold- Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze
    Pairs Silver- Woetzel and Steuer
    Pairs Bronze- Kazakova and Dmitriev


    Mens Gold- Ilia Kulik
    Mens Silver- Todd Eldredge
    Mens Bronze- Alexei Yagudin



    Ladies Gold- Tara Lipinski
    Ladies Silver- Michelle Kwan
    Ladies Bronze- Maria Butyrskaya


    Salt Lake City Olympics

    Pairs Gold- Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze
    Pairs Silver- Sale and Pelletier
    Pairs Bronze- Shen and Zhao


    Mens Gold- Alexei Yagudin
    Mens Silver- Evgeni Plushenko
    Mens Bronze- Takeshi Honda


    Ladies Gold- Irina Slutskaya
    Ladies Silver- Michelle Kwan

    Ladies Bronze- Sarah Hughes


    Turin(0) Olympics

    Pairs Gold- Totmianina and Marinin
    Pairs Silver- Shen and Zhao
    Pairs Bronze- Zhangs


    Mens Gold- Evgeni Plushenko
    Mens Silver- Stephane Lambiel
    Mens Bronze- Jeffrey Buttle


    Ladies Gold- Irina Slutskaya
    Ladies Silver- Shizuka Arakawa
    Ladies Bronze- Sasha Cohen


    Vancouver Olympics


    Pairs Gold- Shen and Zhao
    Pairs Silver- Savchenko and Szolkowy
    Pairs Bronze- Kavaguti and Smirnov


    Mens Gold- Stephane Lambiel
    Mens Silver- Daisuke Takahashi
    Mens Bronze- Evgeni Plushenko


    Ladies Gold- Yu-Na Kim
    Ladies Silver- Mao Asada
    Ladies Bronze- Joannie Rochette


    Those are pretty good. Just a couple changes to yours I made for myself in bold.

    Slutskaya would have won gold at the 2002 Olympics if everyone skated cleanly, not Kwan. Kwan would have taken silver. Anyone who followed the early 2000s realized that the only times Kwan could beat Irina are when she was clean and Irina made mistakes. If they made comparable mistakes or sometimes if Irina had more, Irina always came out ahead. One short program result doesnt change that. The 98 Olympic ladies event should already be enough proof not too read too much into short program results, and Kwan won the short program very easily in 98 as opposed to barely winning it and controversially so in 2002. Irina skated last, no matter how well Kwan skated her marks would have peaked at 5.7s and 5.8s technically and 5.8s and 5.9s in presentation as they would have had to save room for Irina, just like the 2000 and 2001 Worlds. Irina would have had every opportunity to beat that regardless, whether she would have delivered or not is another matter.

    I have no idea what the 94 ladies results would have been if everyone skated cleanly. The one thing I am pretty sure of though is Chen wouldnt have even medalled, let alone won, so I simply bumped her off completely and moved everyone else you posted up a spot, unable to really decide on a order. It could have been any combination of Sato, Bonaly, Baiul, Kerrigan, and maybe (but less likely) Josee in that case, but probably Baiul would never be pushed off the podium in that case being the only certainty.

    Stojko did skate cleanly at the 98 Olympics but chose to not attempt his quad. Skating cleanly without a quad as he did he would have lost silver to Eldredge skating cleanly, and also been pushed right off the podium by young Yagudin skating cleanly with a quad. Candelero beat him in the free program which shows how he was a bit lucky to still salvage silver.

    Honda had 2 quads planned in his 2002 Olympic LP. Had he even done one he beats Goebel, no question.

    At the 94 Olympics Stojko did skate cleanly and did lose to Urmanov, so if one assumes Petrenko and Browning go 1-2 just like 92 going clean, then it is pretty certain Stojko doesnt medal if everyone else skated cleanly too.

  7. #67
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    Great effort, museksk8r.

    Though, I would put Kwan ahead of Lipinski in 1998 and Slutskaya in 2002- skating with attack, speed and a well-landed 3lip would've been enough for Kwan to get the Gold in 1998. It also depends on what you mean by clean for Slutskaya in 2002; two 3-3s? Probably, but I don't think that 2 well-rotated 3-3s were within Slutskaya's grasp in 2002. They would be on the road to Torino, when she fixed her jumps which were getting more scrutiny under CoP

    IDK about 2006 pairs - a healthy S/Z would've been a huge obstacle to T/M, because they underwent their artistic transformation in 2003 and T/M were not necessarily the most aesthetically pleasing Russian / Soviet Pair

  8. #68
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    Irina would not have needed two different 3-3s to beat a clean Kwan. What kind of craziness is that. I could see someone thinking Irina needed one clean 3-3 to beat a clean Michelle, although I would totally disagree even then, but thinking she needed two, ROTFL!!! Tara beat a clean Kwan in 98 with only one 3-3 and Irina >>>>>>>>>>>> Tara as far as who they preferred in competition with Michelle goes. Lets look at some of the Kwan vs Slutskaya events from 2000 to 2002:

    2000 Grand Prix Final- Irina skates amazing. Michelle skates so so. Irina wins easily with a 6.0 for technical merit, and almost all 5.9s on both marks. Not even really significant as this was pretty straightforward except when the reverse happens as later examples will show Michelle doesnt win as easily.

    2000 Worlds- Michelle skating her best performance ever probably with amazing speed, 7 triples, a clean 3-3 combo wins in a split decision over Slutskaya with only 6 triples (one maybe two footed), a big mistake, no 3-3, and Irina had higher technical marks overall and higher presentation marks from some of the judges. It was very clear by the scores Irina would have won for sure simply skating a clean 7 triple program with no rearrangements, and she wouldnt even had to include the triple-triple toe Kwan did or any type of triple-triple either (Irina always did a harder one than that when she attempted one anyway).

    2001 Grand Prix final- Both skate sort of sort so so with only 5 or 6 clean triples. Irina wins easily, losing only 1 judge.

    2000 Skate Canada- Both skate kind of so so with only 5 or 6 clean triples. Irina wins easily, losing only 1 judge.

    2001 Worlds- Michelle's skates an amazing performance, on par with her 2000 Worlds performance. Irina skates a sloppy program with one clear mistake, a step out of a jump, her own triple-triple is badly underrotated and program not even credited by the judges, and several other shaky moments/landings. Still a split decision, and Irina still has the higher technical mark.

    2002 Grand Prix final- Irina with 4 triples in both her long programs wins over Michelle who lands 5 and 6 respectively.

    2002 Worlds- Both Irina and Michelle skate cleanly in the final free skate with 6 triples and Irina wins that phase with slightly higher technical scores and comparable or higher presentation scores.

    It is clear it is Michelle who had to be exceptional and Irina less than so for Michelle to win their confrontations in this rivalry, not vice versa, or not like it was in the reverse in the Tara vs Michelle rivalry. So how one concludes from that Irina needs two 3-3s, which Tara who would have never beaten Michelle or even been competitive with her in the above scenarios of other Irina vs Michelle competitions, didnt even need in 98, I have no idea whatsoever. Not to be rude but what are you smoking exactly.

    Based on the above examples of how they were scored against each other in the early 2000s the only way I see Kwan having beat a clean Irina at all is if Michelle skated like the 2000 and 2001 Worlds lights out with a 3-3 and all and Irina skated super cautious with only 5 or 6 triples and no 3-3, basically something just a bit better than her Olympic performance (now already enough to win over Hughes) and on par or a bit less than her Worlds performance.
    Last edited by kuzytalent; 09-28-2013 at 09:14 PM.

  9. #69
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    As for the 2006 pairs events, had Shen & Zhao been at their absolute best it probably would have been a virtual tie with Totmianina & Marinin. Their scores from the 2005 GPF and T&M's from Turin are virtually the same. As it was Shen & Zhao coming off an injury wouldnt have been at that level of skating even had they gone "clean". By the scores from Turin it seem Shen & Zhao were unlikely to even beat the Zhangs for the silver if both went clean, especialy if the Zhangs landed their quad throw. The Chinese fed. were probably wisely backing the Zhangs as their #1 for Turin with S&Z in an uncertain state, and that would have played a part in the scores even had they skated unexpectedly cleanly. T&M had the full weight of a strong Russian fed. behind them and with S&Z not even the undisputed Chinese #1 at that point, this would have ended any battle at that particular competition.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    Really?
    Plushenko SP TECH-49.69 PCS- 40.97 --- > 90.66 LP TECH-85.25 PCS-82.42 ---> 167.67----> 258.33

    Lambiel SP TECH-40.61 pCS-38.43 ----> 79.04 LP TECH 76.89 PCS-76.28---152.12-----> 231.21 huuuuge difference.

    The people saying Lambiel going clean wins in 2006 over clean Plushenko must be playing a game of "I am the judge" and putting how they would have had it. There is no way the judges were going that way, especialy with Lambiel not planning a triple axel in either program at the Turin Olympics, and wasting his spinning ability by mostly having only having level 2 spins. Lambiel was the best spinner in the World at the time and should have been gaining the most points in spins. He didnt though since he chose some level 2 and 1 spins, and some of his competitors were doing 3 or 4. With all that I wonder if he would have even won the silver if everyone had skated great in Turin, or if he could have been threatened even by clean Buttle or clean Joubert. Unless he did do a triple axel, then the silver would be a lock but I dont think he ever meant to do one there.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lnt175 View Post
    I agree no way was Ito gonna be third if she landed all her technical difficulty. She actually had more planned than Harding with potentially 2 3A's and a Lutz/toe combo. I think even one 3A with a clean 3/3 would give her the win.
    Harding should be the winner in 92 if everyone skated cleanly. She had the perfect combination, Kristi's artistry and Midori's great jumping ability. She also had better spins and speed than both. Probably the judges would have gone with Kristi and Midori gold and silver in either order and Harding only bronze had they all been clean due to marking Tonya down for her trailer trash lifestyle. Not right but it is what they would have done. With how Kristi, Midori, Nancy, Josee, and everyone did skate in Albertville they would have had to give Tonya gold if she skated like 91 Nationals or 91 Skate America though. There would have been no choice.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzytalent View Post
    Irina would not have needed two different 3-3s to beat a clean Kwan. What kind of craziness is that. I could see someone thinking Irina needed one clean 3-3 to beat a clean Michelle, although I would totally disagree even then, but thinking she needed two, ROTFL!!! Tara beat a clean Kwan in 98 with only one 3-3 and Irina >>>>>>>>>>>> Tara as far as who they preferred in competition with Michelle goes. Lets look at some of the Kwan vs Slutskaya events from 2000 to 2002:

    2000 Grand Prix Final- Irina skates amazing. Michelle skates so so. Irina wins easily with a 6.0 for technical merit, and almost all 5.9s on both marks. Not even really significant as this was pretty straightforward except when the reverse happens as later examples will show Michelle doesnt win as easily.

    2000 Worlds- Michelle skating her best performance ever probably with amazing speed, 7 triples, a clean 3-3 combo wins in a split decision over Slutskaya with only 6 triples (one maybe two footed), a big mistake, no 3-3, and Irina had higher technical marks overall and higher presentation marks from some of the judges. It was very clear by the scores Irina would have won for sure simply skating a clean 7 triple program with no rearrangements, and she wouldnt even had to include the triple-triple toe Kwan did or any type of triple-triple either (Irina always did a harder one than that when she attempted one anyway).

    2001 Grand Prix final- Both skate sort of sort so so with only 5 or 6 clean triples. Irina wins easily, losing only 1 judge.

    2000 Skate Canada- Both skate kind of so so with only 5 or 6 clean triples. Irina wins easily, losing only 1 judge.

    2001 Worlds- Michelle's skates an amazing performance, on par with her 2000 Worlds performance. Irina skates a sloppy program with one clear mistake, a step out of a jump, her own triple-triple is badly underrotated and program not even credited by the judges, and several other shaky moments/landings. Still a split decision, and Irina still has the higher technical mark.

    2002 Grand Prix final- Irina with 4 triples in both her long programs wins over Michelle who lands 5 and 6 respectively.

    2002 Worlds- Both Irina and Michelle skate cleanly in the final free skate with 6 triples and Irina wins that phase with slightly higher technical scores and comparable or higher presentation scores.

    It is clear it is Michelle who had to be exceptional and Irina less than so for Michelle to win their confrontations in this rivalry, not vice versa, or not like it was in the reverse in the Tara vs Michelle rivalry. So how one concludes from that Irina needs two 3-3s, which Tara who would have never beaten Michelle or even been competitive with her in the above scenarios of other Irina vs Michelle competitions, didnt even need in 98, I have no idea whatsoever. Not to be rude but what are you smoking exactly.

    Based on the above examples of how they were scored against each other in the early 2000s the only way I see Kwan having beat a clean Irina at all is if Michelle skated like the 2000 and 2001 Worlds lights out with a 3-3 and all and Irina skated super cautious with only 5 or 6 triples and no 3-3, basically something just a bit better than her Olympic performance (now already enough to win over Hughes) and on par or a bit less than her Worlds performance.
    I disagree. Kwan w/ a 3-3 and Slute w/ at best only one 3-3 would've given Kwan the Gold. My calculations were at that point in time (2002) Slute was never going to do 2 clean 3-3s. Kwan's 3t-3t was generally more dependable than any 3-3s Slute threw out there
    Last edited by olympic; 09-29-2013 at 02:36 PM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzytalent View Post
    Harding should be the winner in 92 if everyone skated cleanly. She had the perfect combination, Kristi's artistry and Midori's great jumping ability. She also had better spins and speed than both. Probably the judges would have gone with Kristi and Midori gold and silver in either order and Harding only bronze had they all been clean due to marking Tonya down for her trailer trash lifestyle. Not right but it is what they would have done. With how Kristi, Midori, Nancy, Josee, and everyone did skate in Albertville they would have had to give Tonya gold if she skated like 91 Nationals or 91 Skate America though. There would have been no choice.
    I agree Harding was a gold medal threat if she was in her 90 or 91 self, and others missing a jump or 2. I'm not sure if she'd win though if Yamaguchi and Ito were perfect. I think they would have had higher scores. Plus Ito as I said, had even more difficulty planned, and she wasn't s a slouch in the speed and spins department either. Yamaguchi was considered the most artistic, and even with her performance in Albertville had very high marks(wheter deserved or not is another story). Kerrigan and Chouinard would have no hope if all 3 skated well.

    As for SLC I agree Slutskaya had developed such a repertoire that she would have won. Kwan had the advantage of skating at home though, so a perfect skate from her might have done it in that case. In all other competitions outside the US though I do think a clean Slutskaya was winning (as evidenced by their head to head meetings in the early 2000s).

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    Had Tonya skated cleanly with the triple axel in 92 I think Kristi would have needed both the triple lutz-triple toe and triple salchow clean to beat her, and she never did that. The only time she landed the triple salchow was the 92 Nationals but she didnt do the triple lutz-triple toe there (she had a step in between).

    I am kind of surprised nobody has Bowman even medalling in 92, or even possibly the gold or silver. I only say that since people on this forum I have seen often calling him the most talented skater, and wouldnt the most talented skater translate to something skating their best, even if all others also did? I know I didnt pick him for a medal but that is because I was never one of those who considered him the most talented skater.

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    Since this thread goes to 2014 I might as well do what I think will happen in 2014 if all go clean:

    Men

    Gold- Chan. Gold not only if clean, but if he has no more than 4 falls worth of mistakes he will be gif...err I mean given gold even if Fernandez, Takahashi, and Hanyu, his 3 main competitors are all perfect and spectacular. I still predict him to be 3rd or 4th with even more than 4 falls worth of mistakes however, then retiring (thank goodness).

    Silver- Hanyu. His GOEs and inflated PCS would carry him to silver.

    Bronze- Takahashi. Judges still like him as the Grand Prix final showed. Might even be able to do better in this scenario, hard to say. Fernandez also might win silver or bronze in an all clean competition, it would be very close, apart form Chan's 40 point margin of victory.


    Ladies

    Gold- Kim. I dont think this would be the runaway as the men in that case though. Kim, Kostner, and Asada would all end up fairly close in points if all went clean.

    Silver- Asada. She will lose to Kostner if both make a similar number of mistakes, as I think she will, but will beat her if both go clean due to base value.

    Bronze- Kostner. Read above.


    Pairs

    Gold- Volosozhar & Trankov. Would need 2 falls to be in any serious danger at this point.

    Silver- Savchenko & Szolkowy.

    Bronze- Barazova & Larionov. This is if they go clean remember, not neccessarily a prediction of the result.


    Dance:

    Whatever the judges feel that day, but obviously either Davis & White or Virtue & Moir for gold.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Since this thread goes to 2014 I might as well do what I think will happen in 2014 if all go clean:


    Dance:

    Whatever the judges feel that day, but obviously either Davis & White or Virtue & Moir for gold.
    I actually give a slight edge to D/W at this point. Over the past few seasons, Team D/W has slowly but effectively corrected what kept them behind V/M for years; making Meryl into a true leading lady whose SS are now equal to Charlie's. A leading lady is probably more important to Ice Dance than Pairs. It's to the point where D/W can beat a healthy V/M in Canada ('13 Worlds). It was never like that before, in the grand scope of things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Lambiel wasnt even attempting the triple axel. He didnt even need it to win over quadless Evan either however.

    As for Takahashi not beating a clean Plushenko, keep dreaming. Lysacek even beat a clean Plushenko. Takahashi with a quad and much better artistry than both would have cakewalked to the Vancouver gold. His PCS even with the big fall and other mistakes was higher than Lysacek and Plushenko, and his base value with a clean skate was higher. A judge was interviewed after the event and stated had Takahashi skated cleanly he definitely would have won in Vancouver as he was everything the judges were looking for in a mens champion.

    There are probably tons of guys who would have beaten Lysacek and Plushenko in Vancouver had they skated cleanly, not just Lambiel and Takahashi. Some Plushenko fans seem to be living in a time warp and thinking 2010 was still 2006, which in the aftermath of the actual result (which I disagreed with in Evan winning btw, but that is aside the point) is quite unbelievable. Either way the fact a quadless Lysacek won the gold, when even Lysacek with quads is easily beatable by a horde of potentially superior skaters (Lambiel, Takahashi, Chan, Abbott at this best, a few others) proves a ton of guys could have won the gold in Vancouver skating cleanly. Lambiel and Takahahi most likely the top 2 in either order in that case however.
    When Lysacek beat the clean Plushenko? At Vancouver? Hm. Plushenko wasn't clean in LP, but you are right, his jumps were better like Evan's, contrary to what the Americans thought.
    Lysacek received only a judges warning for a wrong-edged takeoff on his 3F, plus Lysa's first 3A was prerotated.

    and as I wrote:

    Plush's Interp-8,75 Perf/ex- 8,8

    Dai Int-8,65 Perf-8,5

    Evan's Int-8,4 Perf-8,5
    Last edited by lala; 09-29-2013 at 03:56 PM.

  18. #78

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    kuzytalent,

    I think your rationale may work, but it relies too heavily on past examples. Every competition is new, we have no idea what that particular judging panel on that particular night in the U.S. would have done between Slutskaya and Kwan. We never really saw a competition in which both skaters skated lights out to the best of the abilities against one another. Usually one would win when the other would falter (even if it was slightly). I mean look at S/P v. B/S. S/P won over B/S as many times as Slutskaya beat Kwan over the season prior to SLC (if not more). Then look at what initially happened in SLC.

    Maybe this is me misremembering the attitudes going into SLC, but wasn't it a popular conception (or misconception) that the Olympics were Kwan's to lose since the Nagano narrative was so strong and that the judges were going to give Irina the World title as a consolation. Some said the GPF was also a consolation ala Bourne and Kraatz's win.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    When Lysacek beat the clean Plushenko? At Vancouver? Hm. Plushenko wasn't clean in LP, but you are right, his jumps were better like Evan's, contrary to what the Americans thought.
    Lysacek received only a judges warning for a wrong-edged takeoff on his 3F, plus Lysa's first 3A was prerotated.

    and as I wrote:

    Plush's Interp-8,75 Perf/ex- 8,8

    Dai Int-8,65 Perf-8,5

    Evan's Int-8,4 Perf-8,5
    No way Evan's 2nd triple axel should have been credited. It was badly underrotated, but the judges ignored it. I will have to go back on tape and look at the first again. I didnt agree with Evan's win but I didnt want to go there again as it is a dead horse that has been beat repeatedly. I do sense the judges were looking for anyone but Plushenko to win after Inman's letter. After the short they were probably hoping that would be Takahashi, but when he didnt deliver they had to look for it to be Evan who had skated cleanly (well was scored as such anyway).

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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    I actually give a slight edge to D/W at this point. Over the past few seasons, Team D/W has slowly but effectively corrected what kept them behind V/M for years; making Meryl into a true leading lady whose SS are now equal to Charlie's. A leading lady is probably more important to Ice Dance than Pairs. It's to the point where D/W can beat a healthy V/M in Canada ('13 Worlds). It was never like that before, in the grand scope of things.
    I agree with you. At this point D&W have the edge. I simply wouldnt call it a foregone conclusion or count V&M out at this point. However if I had to pick the winner now it will definitely be D&W. They will also probably be the sentimental favorites having not won OGM yet.

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