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  1. #41
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    The 92 Olympic ladies was one of the biggest dissapointing competitions though, where the top level skaters all faltered. Mistake ridden competition that could have been completely different across the board if all the top 4 or 5 went clean.
    Last edited by Lnt175; 09-22-2013 at 01:16 AM.

  2. #42
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    It was dissapointing since it could have been a great event with all the talent in the field. Kristi, Midori, Tonya, Nancy, young Surya, Josee, young Lu, young Yuka, Hubert, all skating their best would have been amazing. However in the end the second tier skaters failed to capatilize on the mistakes by the favorites to get anywhere near the podium, so it didnt make a whole lot of difference in the results. Things would have been roughly the same, the top 4 would have still been Yamaguchi, Ito, Harding, and Kerrigan in some order. Maybe Kristi would have dropped to silver or bronze behind Ito and/or Harding, maybe Harding would have risen to silver or bronze and pushed Kerrigan off, but ultimately things wouldnt have been that different, as the second tier contenders didnt do anything to capatilize on the mistakes of the main favorites, they skated badly too, and the top 4 coming in remained the top 4. Even Kerrigan could have won with a totally clean skate being 2nd after the short, and skating after Kristi's mistakes, and that would have been a huge upset and shakeup, but she couldnt come close in the end. Young and extremely unpolished Bonaly skating cleanly in the long could have won the bronze with how Kerrigan did, which would have been about as big an upset and shakeup as Kerrigan winning the gold, but she too couldnt come close either. Ultimately none of the womens results ended up THAT surprising and could have been easily imagined before the Games. Kristi winning wasnt surprising, even if Midori was the slight favorite going in, and Kerrigan pushing one of the big 3 off the podium wasnt surprising either (especialy being that it was Harding who after U.S Nationals looked the most vurnerable of the 3 main gold medal contenders). It was just a surprisngly poor set of performances to get there.

    That is unlike the mens event where Wylie who probably wouldnt have even finished in the top 5 if Browning, Petrenko, Bowman, Eldredge, and Barna had all simply skated the same as the 91 Worlds (not even perfectly) grabbed his massive opportunity to win the silver, and the gold medal favorite Browning finished a lowly 6th.
    Last edited by judgejudy27; 09-22-2013 at 01:10 AM.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimGOAT View Post
    Plushenko was way overmarked at the 2006 Olympics, and his competitors all undermarked, especialy in PCS. His margin of lead after the SP and overall victory was a joke, even if the event wasnt the best skated. That is why people high up in the sport stepped forward and spoke out about Plushenko's skating prior to Vancouver to make sure a farce like that did not happen again.
    Regardless of that being true or not, how does that translate to a clean Plushenko losing to a clean Lambiel in Torino? It might've been closer (well, it would've been closer) but he still would've won.

  4. #44
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    ^ When regarding clean skates from two skaters from the same country, the deciding factor may have been who had more support:

    1992 men: IF Bowman and Eldredge skated cleanly, Eldredge would've probably snagged the bronze and the podium would've been the same as '91 Worlds. Eldredge held most favored status with the USFSA and even if you argue that Bowman was capable of blowing the roof off the arena when he was ON and clean, he was pretty much unloved by the USFSA. Still, who knows. International judges are not national judges

  5. #45
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    I think if Barna skated cleanly with his quad and triple lutz-triple toe, even with no triple axel, he probably would have outplaced both Americans. At the 91 Worlds he beat a very good Bowman (whose only mistake was a fall on a quad try but had a clean triple axel and triple-triple) and nearly beat a 2 triple axel Eldredge with no quad, no triple axel, no triple-triple, and a turnout and some minor mistakes. Remember the European judges loved him and his skating (I personally never did, but that has no bearing on the results). I think as it was he would have beaten Petrenko for the gold had he not fallen on a triple flip near the end, even with a two footed quad and not doing the triple lutz-triple toe combo. He lost silver by .1 to Wylie's far stronger performance.

    I agree between Eldredge and Bowman, Eldredge would have gotten the nod. I think had everyone skated well Bowman would have been down in 5th or even 6th behind an inspired Wylie perhaps. Unfortunately Christopher's stock had been going down with the judges for quite awhile at that point, and Todd was more the USFSA favorite than he was. I dont think Bowman would have gotten a bye to the Olympics if he missed Nationals injured. The 91 Worlds was a pretty clear indication how they saw the top guys skating well, and Chris even admitted he thought of quitting as he was so depressed skating so well and finishing 5th there. Everyone knew his immsense talent but he had dissapointed people for too long by that point I guess.

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post

    2002 Olympic ladies: In a well skated overall even it would be Slutskaya or Kwan for the gold (more likely Slutskaya if she skated her best IMO), and the bronze between Hughes, Butyrskaya, and Cohen.
    Considering the judging of the SP in SLC, I actually think Kwan was much more favored by that panel, and would have easily one in a clean tete-a-tete with Irina.

  7. #47
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    ^I think there were statements that came out during the whole pairs judging scandal that there was going to be a trade, where the Russians would pick up Pairs and French would get Ice Dance for the French vote to B/S in pairs, but Ladies would go to the US -meaning Kwan over Slutskaya; Russian Fed sacrifices Slutskaya (close rival to Kwan) for B/S (close rival with S/P). Thus, if both Kwan and Slutskaya had gone clean, Kwan would've won.

    As it stood, interestingly, both Kwan and Slutskaya had similar mistakes in their LPs - 1 2-footed landing (Kwan on the 3toe and Slute on the 3lutz) and 1 bad landing (both on the 3flip; Kwan's more egregious) and the judges put Slutskaya ahead of Kwan. IF Kwan had been clean and Slutskaya been clean I think the judges would've put Kwan ahead.
    Last edited by olympic; 09-22-2013 at 11:51 PM.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by escaflowne9282 View Post
    Considering the judging of the SP in SLC, I actually think Kwan was much more favored by that panel, and would have easily one in a clean tete-a-tete with Irina.
    Considering the judging of the LP I strongly feel the reverse is true. Keep in mind she lost the gold only by .1 and a tiebreaker to Hughes even with that lame ass performance. In fact I generally feel Irina was always the judges favorite from 2000-2002 and would have won always given a similar caliber skate to someone else. Unfortunately for her in the LP of the 2000 Worlds and 2001 Worlds, and the LP of the 2002 Olympics, her skate was not of similar caliber to someone else.

    Anyway if we are talking about skaters doing their best, and not just clean which could have a whole bunch of denominations, Irina would have had a triple lutz-triple loop, and there is no chance of Kwan from 2000 onwards ever beating her with something like that, even on home ice.



    BTW I thought Slutskaya losing the SP in SLC as some kind of scandalous result was always a myth. Irina's SP in SLC was by far her worst clean short of the year. Her last combination spin travelled badly (in one particular split moment, so seperate from just the general travelling it usually has some of), and was IMO a much worse minor mistake than Kwan's triple flip. She had a big break in steps before the triple flip, and she was much slower than usual (was again in the LP too). Had she done her Grand Prix final or Worlds LP which anyone with a good set of eyes can acknowledge were MUCH better, I have no doubt she would have the SP 9 judges to 0 most likely. Especialy with Kwan's minor triple flip issue and usual strong short program skater Butyrskaya's weak and sluggish skate; and there would be no feeling the judging panel in SLC was against her or against the Russian skaters at that point, like some said after the SP. The only injustice in the SP was Hughes's ridiculous 4th place for her mediocre and sluggish albeit cleanish skate which made anything more than maybe a bronze medal possible for her, and this to the ultimate later victimization of both Kwan, Slutskaya (and even Cohen) after Hughes's great long program to come, but that is a whole other topic I dont want to reopen.
    Last edited by judgejudy27; 09-22-2013 at 11:57 PM.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    ^I think there were statements that came out during the whole pairs judging scandal that there was going to be a trade, where the Russians would pick up Pairs and French would get Ice Dance for the French vote to B/S in pairs, but Ladies would go to the US -meaning Kwan over Slutskaya; Russian Fed sacrifices Slutskaya (close rival to Kwan) for B/S (close rival with S/P). Thus, if both Kwan and Slutskaya had gone clean, Kwan would've won
    Whether any of that is true, considering the whole pairs scandal that went down and the Russians being forced into a state of embarssment (unfairly IMO as I felt B&S were actually the rightful winners) all that which might have been beforehand went out the window. The Russians nearly got their much inferior dance team to a gold medal over a much superior set of performances by the French. Any loyalties the Russians might have promised to someone else pre SLC were already completely out the window by the time Sale & Pelletier were awarded a 2nd gold medal.

    Anyway in hindsight it is extremely clear there is no way the U.S were involved in some multi event trade to get Kwan the gold to help Russia win the pairs. The Americans were the biggest opposers to the Russian pairs gold all along, including an American referee telling judges before the event they shouldnt give B&S any 5.9s for their short program no matter how they skated since they skated early. So whoever made those statements got his rumors from the wrong gossip mill it seems.

  10. #50
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    Further to 2002 Ladies. I wonder where Hughes w/ a 3-3 would've been placed in relation to a clean Kwan and clean Slutskaya w/o a 3-3?

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    Further to 2002 Ladies. I wonder where Hughes w/ a 3-3 would've been placed in relation to a clean Kwan and clean Slutskaya w/o a 3-3?
    I think she would have been 3rd. She didnt get a single 5.9.

    I think Kwan skating cleanly without a 3-3 would have gotten 5.7s and 5.8s technically and 5.8s and 5.9s for presentation, winning the LP over Hughes on a split vote. Kwan with a 3 toe-3 toe would have gotten mostly 5.8s technically and 5.8s and 5.9s for presentation, probably winning in an unaminous choice over Hughes now.

    Slutskaya skating cleanly with a 3-3 (which for her would most likely be a 3 lutz-3 loop or maybe a 3 sal-3 loop, some type of much harder 3-3) would have gotten 5.9s and 6.0s for technical and mostly 5.9s for presentation (tech. greatness always elevates presentation scores, and anyway her extremely slow, flawed, and weak LP had several 5.9s for presentation). Slutskaya skating cleanly with no 3-3 at all would have most likely gotten scores similar to her Worlds LP, mostly 5.8s and a few 5.9s on both sets.

    The only way I would see Kwan even possibly winning over Slutskaya if both were clean is if Kwan included the 3 toe-3 toe and Slutskaya tried a triple-triple of no kind, but had Irina skated after Kwan skated extremely well there is no way she wouldnt have tried one of her harder 3-3s anyway (she never tried the 3 toe-3 toe after 98) so that is moot. Meanwhile I dont see Hughes finishing above either in the LP even with her 3-3s, if Kwan or Slutskaya went clean even without a 3-3.

  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lnt175 View Post
    I agree with the 98-2010 placements but for Albertiville I'm surprised so many have Yamaguchi ahead of Harding if both went clean. Did we forget 91 nats and SA where Harding went clean and won.
    Going back to Kristi/Tonya for a moment, I don't think either had a really strong advantage in the judges' minds in 1991-92. I think it came down to how many, and which, jumps each landed per competition. Tonya had the advantage in difficulty with the 3A but Kristi was more consistent. It's interesting to look back at their 1991 Worlds SPs:

    Harding: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYI46Dq2-X8
    Yamaguchi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-vRIzbBMsg

    In these programs, they each had clean performances with almost exactly the same elements. From today's perspective, you can see Tonya had an advantage in overall speed, jump height, and spin speed. Kristi had an advantage in line, elegance, and spin positions. Kristi won this SP. To me this is a bit of an indication that, all things being clean (and with Kristi putting out 3z/3t against Tonya's 3A in the long), the judges were prepared to give Kristi the nod. Maybe. :-)

  13. #53
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    Kristi was certain to miss triple salchow. For her clean skate is fall or single triple salchow. So a clean Kristi (counted triple salchow miss as her clean) would lose to clean Midori and maybe clean Tonya with triple axel. Even if judges like her artistic more, 4 triples wont be placed over someone with 6. Well maybe a clean Kim with only 4 different triples could beat a clean Midori or Tonya with all 6 but Kim does huge and difficult triple-triples with amazing flow, and her artistic is stronger than Kristi's, and speed much more.

    The women ladies medal tallies going clean would go:

    1992:

    Gold: Midori
    Silver: Kristi (counted triple salchow fall as clean)
    Bronze: Tonya (maybe silver)


    1994:

    Gold: Chouinard
    Silver: Yuka Sapo
    Bronze: Bonaly, Baiul, or Kerrigan (no idea which


    1998:

    Gold: Chen
    Silver: Lipinski
    Bronze: Kwan



    2002:

    Gold: Slutskaya
    Silver: Cohen
    Bronze: Kwan


    2006:

    Gold: Slutskaya
    Silver: Arakawa
    Bronze: Kwan (had she skated and both she and Cohen been clean Kwan would get nod)


    2010:

    Gold: Kim
    Silver: Rochette
    Bronze: Asada


    Mans skaters:

    1992:

    Gold: Petrenko
    Silver: Browning
    Bronze: Barna


    1994:

    Gold: Boitano
    Silver: Browning
    Bronze: Stojko


    1998:

    Gold: Stojko (with quad, without quad 5th if all clean)
    Silver: Kulik (with quad, without quad bronze if all clean)
    Bronze: Eldredge


    2002:

    Gold: Plushenko
    Silver: Yagudin
    Bronze: Goebel, Eldredge, Honda, Abt, no idea which.


    2006:

    Gold: Plushenko
    Silver: Lysacek
    Bronze: Weir


    2010:

    Gold: Plushenko
    Silver: Lysacek
    Bronze: Takahashi or Lambiel
    Last edited by itoaxel; 09-23-2013 at 04:12 PM.

  14. #54
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    I don't think I understand Chen getting gold while going clean in Nagano. For her she was as clean as she was gonna get at that point, minus the step out of the flip (from 97-98). Her jump layout was nowhere near Lipinskis. Her jumps were not as strong as hers or Kwans at that point. True she had beautiful artistry that was superior to the others, but Kwan was on her level even though she didn't skate it as well as Nationals. Lipinski was getting very strong presentation marks as well (while deserved or not is another story). I think if the top skaters went clean she would be off the podium to Butryskaya and Slutskaya.

    A case could be made for her in 94, where she wasn't favored to win gold, but had lots of diffulty (didn't hit all her difficulty as planned in Lillehammer) and was a much better overall skater with her spins and speed. Although she wasn't as polished as she would be in later years she could have gotten even better presentation scores with a perfect routine as well.
    Last edited by Lnt175; 09-24-2013 at 02:47 AM.

  15. #55
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    I tend to think if everyone was clean Chen would have finished only 5th or 6th at the 94 and 98 Olympics both. 94 probably undeservedly to be that low but still would have likely been the judges slot for. At the 94 Olympics she wasnt perfect, but at the 93 Worlds she was perfect in both programs and came a fairly distant 3rd to Baiul and Bonaly, and needed Kerrigan and Chouinard to blow their long program performances pretty badly to beat them. Sato didnt have all the triples yet in 93 so finished below Chen there, but by 94 she had all the triples. So I think that gives a pretty clear indication to where the judges saw her in 93-94 if everyone did their best, although Bonaly doesnt usually meet her standards of the 93 Worlds even on a very good day, and Chen's artistry had already improved some from 93 to 94. A case could be made if everyone skated their best at the 94 Olympics Chen might have deserved gold, especialy with her stunning short program that year, but she never would have gotten it. Just like at the 94 Olympics I wouldnt have had either Baiul or Kerrigan even on the podium if everyone was perfect, but you know that the judges would have probably had both on it somewhere, or atleast 1 of them.

    98 5th or 6th would have been the correct placement for her if everyone skated their best as her technical skills were inferior to other top skaters even on her best day by then, and the other top skaters all had very strong presentation too, to varying degrees of course. It was still great that she could skate so well and get the bronze though, after all she had been through. Sad for Maria though who probably would have retired in peace with her 98 Olympic bronze and 99 World title sometime in 99 or 2000 (she admitted so herself) and avoided skating in Salt Lake City as a shadow of her self, and missing out on the last bit of the pro boom too.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanoverrated View Post

    Salt Lake City Olympics


    Men's Bronze - Todd Eldredge would be given home ice retirement present.

    I was going to withhold my comments on this, but I don't think it would have been far fetched @ all for Todd to win bronze in SLC had he not had the unfortunate mistake/fall in the SP. I don't see it as a retirement gift with home country advantage, either. His free skate was magnificent, notwithstanding the fall on the blasted quad which, IMHO, is STILL overemphasized to the exclusion of all else in men's fs.
    Last edited by paskatefan; 09-24-2013 at 12:14 PM.

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    It is questionable whether Todd even skating well would deserve to be Goebel with his 3 quads. Didnt Honda also have 2 quads. A clean Honda with quads would even more clearly deserve to beat Todd who probably would have none. Many would say Honda was artistically superior at that point. Stojko always beat a clean Eldredge even when Stojko didnt attempt or missed his quad. The sheer power of his jumps always overcame Todd even when Todd landed more jumps and Stojko got hammered in artistic scores. So he too would be over normally. Abt skating like he did at Europeans would deserve to beat a clean Eldredge too.

    So yeah if Todd did win the bronze in an all clean event it probably would be a career achievement award of some sort like kwanoverrated implied. Not that I would have minded it, it would be a case a skater might deserve it all things considered.



    As for the quad being emphasized, that isnt neccessarily a bad thing. Otherwise something like Vancouver where a skater who not only doesnt have a quad but doesnt have anything else great either becomes an Olympic Champion. It shouldnt be emphasized to the point that Chan keeps falling on his face and winning everything, but apart from that it has never been that overemphasized.

    It also never applied to Todd whasoever.The only people Todd regularly lost who had quads were people he would have regularly lost even if they werent doing any quads- Stojko, Kulik, Urmanov, Yagudin, Plushenko. So in the end it really made no difference for him (other than his losses to Goebel which would have never happened without the quads of course).
    Last edited by judgejudy27; 09-24-2013 at 07:30 PM.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lnt175 View Post
    I don't think I understand Chen getting gold while going clean in Nagano. For her she was as clean as she was gonna get at that point, minus the step out of the flip (from 97-98). Her jump layout was nowhere near Lipinskis. Her jumps were not as strong as hers or Kwans at that point. True she had beautiful artistry that was superior to the others, but Kwan was on her level even though she didn't skate it as well as Nationals. Lipinski was getting very strong presentation marks as well (while deserved or not is another story). I think if the top skaters went clean she would be off the podium to Butryskaya and Slutskaya.

    A case could be made for her in 94, where she wasn't favored to win gold, but had lots of diffulty (didn't hit all her difficulty as planned in Lillehammer) and was a much better overall skater with her spins and speed. Although she wasn't as polished as she would be in later years she could have gotten even better presentation scores with a perfect routine as well.

    Lu had a triple-triple and 2 triple lutzes in her program planned. Maria and Irina did not have 2 triple lutzes. Maria and Michelle did not have a triple-triple. Lu had 7 triples like Tara and Michelle, and unlike Maria and Irina who only planned 6. So her program was 2nd hardest technically behind Tara. That combined with better artistry than Tara I am guessing would have given her gold if she skated cleanly, or atleast 1st in the long program.

    Although she would have been only 7th to 9th in the short if everyone had done clean, so I guess I forgot that part of it, and was only thinking of terms that she was 4th in the short as it was taking advantage of others mistakes.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by itoaxel View Post
    Lu had a triple-triple and 2 triple lutzes in her program planned. Maria and Michelle did not have a triple-triple.
    Kwan did have a 3toe+3toe planned for her SLC LP. Her MO was to plan the 3toe+3toe and if she happened to double the 2nd 3toe, then she would replace the split jumps at the end of her program with the 2nd 3toe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KimGOAT View Post
    Everyone knows PCS is mostly about reputation. When it comes to PCS Plushenko deserves high marks for skating skills and performance. However transitions or choreography, dont make me laugh, there is hardly any in his programs. Interpretation varies depending on the program or performance but people like Takahashi and Lambiel are far superior there.

    Anyway in Vancouver prominent people like Joe Inman spoke out about the injusice of Plushenko's generous GOE and PCS in the past, and the judges suddenly scored him fairly and what happens. He skates fairly clean and loses to one of the most generic and average Olympic winners ever who didnt even try a quad. Just imagine had Lambiel or Takahashi or people way better than Lysacek skated against this newly fairly scored Plushenko.
    Lysacek was also overscored in Vancouver, so they basically replaced one overscored skater, Plushenko with another overscored skater, Lysacek, but NBC and probably Inman too agreed with Lysacek's victory because he is American. This is very fair and objective. I've never heard what Inman, Hamilton, etc said about Plushenko's PCS because I live in Europe and fortunately we have Eurosport.
    Why don't they organize some North American Olympics if it is so important that they ratify each Olympic Champion and opinions outside N/A obviously don't matter?

    Actually, as Lala already has pointed out , Plushenkos's PCS in LP were very good. In 2006 he clearly was a better skater, so his scores were higher. His SP was also better and better skated. While Inman and the NBC gang were so busy checking Plushenko's marks, judges ovrescored Lysacek is SP compared to Takahashi, who should have been second or even first.

    Regarding Lambiel, just like Plushenko, he wasn't the skater he used to be in 2005 or 2006 and even clean he would have been surpassed IMO by Takahashi.
    Last edited by ciocio; 09-26-2013 at 09:30 AM.

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