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  1. #101

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    I was talking about your comment about Irina never upping the ante when her competitors skate great and listing 2001 Worlds as an example. I wasn't talking about whether Irina actually executed her planned content well.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  2. #102
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    Fair enough. OK I give her the 2001 Worlds in that regard, but most other times she wimps out when a competitor goes big, like she did at the 2000 Worlds and 2002 Olympics, and then doesnt even go clean on top of that. I would say 2006 Olympics but none of her competitors even went big there, and she just chose to wimp out and then fall on top of that anyway.

    The 2002 and 2006 Olympics were amongst the most pathetic chokes ever by a legendary skater. A skater who at her best can do 7 triples with 2 different 3-3s skating last and only needing to go clean with 5 triples and no 3-3s to win, and couldnt even manage that. She just wasnt a strong competitor under pressure. People assume she is since she was more consistent in that era of headcases than anyone not named Kwan, Lipinski, Hughes, and Chen and didnt have the meltdowns Suguri, Butyrskaya, Cohen, Gusmeroli, Liashenko, Nikodinov, Voltchkova, Robinson, Arakawa, and other top skaters of that era were famous for, but that doesnt mean she was truly tough and a clutch competitor.
    Last edited by KimGOAT; 10-02-2013 at 08:03 PM.

  3. #103

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    That's one thing I never understood about Arakawa's performance. I knew Arakawa felt she could play it safe due to Cohen's performance, but Irina was coming up and she was capable of hitting it out of the ballpark. Unless Arakawa and Morosov knew something about the way Irina had been practicing (and if Irina wasn't hitting her routines consistently). I always wondered who would have won had Arakawa and Slutskaya performed similar jump content. I preferred Arakawa, but the judges may have given it to Slutskaya.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    That's one thing I never understood about Arakawa's performance. I knew Arakawa felt she could play it safe due to Cohen's performance, but Irina was coming up and she was capable of hitting it out of the ballpark. Unless Arakawa and Morosov knew something about the way Irina had been practicing (and if Irina wasn't hitting her routines consistently). I always wondered who would have won had Arakawa and Slutskaya performed similar jump content. I preferred Arakawa, but the judges may have given it to Slutskaya.
    I think the judges would usually go with Slutskaya over Arakawa with similar jump content since they liked her better and she had a bigger reputation and legacy in the sport, and both were equally good at milking COP points. Shizuka was a more aesthetic pleasing skater, but she wasnt ever viewed as some amazing artist while amateur the way Kwan and Cohen are. However that particular day it might have been Arakawa since even before her fall Slutskaya had many shaky landings and elements, and the program was one of her most boring ever. She lost to Shizuka by nearly 10 points which indicates she wouldnt have won even with the fall unless her triple loop would have gotten +2 in GOE and she would gained an average of .5 on every PC category (which would be worth a total of 4 points). It indicates she would have needed both the doubled triple flip and the landed triple loop for 6 triples to Shizuka's 5 to have beaten her. Had she skated with more convicition and stronger jumps and spins earlier in the program that probably wouldnt be the case though.


    I think that Shizuka probably felt Irina would bomb. She had been skating very badly in practices in Turin from all reports. Some observers said they were surprised she made it through the long program as well as she did, which means she must have been having some scary bad practices at that event, and been struggling with the altitude perhaps.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I always wondered who would have won had Arakawa and Slutskaya performed similar jump content. I preferred Arakawa, but the judges may have given it to Slutskaya.
    Yes, I feel the judges would have awarded Slutskaya a lifetime achievement award in the form of Olympic gold had she simply managed to skate conservatively and cleanly in similar fashion to her 2002 Worlds LP. It's a real shame her deteriorating health got the best of her in 2006. Same for Kwan. 2006 ranks similarly with 1992 as the most disappointing Olympic ladies skating events. 2002 is right there in the mix too though.

  6. #106
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    Kwan was never a contender for the 2006 Olympics. I was actually relieved when she WD rather than having to witness a dissapointing finish for her. Had she somewhat gotten through a somewhat clean competition she probably would have been 4th or 5th alongside Suguri, but had she not been able to manage that (quite likely given her health, struggles with COP, not competed all season) it could have been something ugly.

    The real dissapointment along with Slutskaya and Cohen's falls, Shizuka's conservative vs her dynamite practices performance, and the overall blah event, is Asada not getting to skate in 2006 due to the stupid age rule. I am a Kim uber who generally roots against Mao over the years, but she really did deserve the Olympic Gold that year, and it is a shame in hindsight as that was clearly her best chance. She never had a hope vs Kim in 2010, and probably not vs Kim or Koster this time around.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lnt175 View Post
    The 92 Olympic ladies was one of the biggest dissapointing competitions though, where the top level skaters all faltered. Mistake ridden competition that could have been completely different across the board if all the top 4 or 5 went clean.
    It wasnt just the womens. The mens and pairs were a mess too. I dont mind if not everyone skates cleanly. I actualy like it when it opens the door for an upset to someone with an inspired performance. When nobody is more than 75% of their best though and many much less than that it kind of sucks though. That was the case for all the Albertville events. One splatfest after another.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lnt175 View Post
    I did have Baiul beating Chen in Lillehammer if both went clean as well, only because the judges seemed lukewarm to Chens Naussica program. Kerrigan, while she did go clean, still doubled the flip. If she hit the 3flip I think would win, but skating order would play a huge part in that as well.
    I loved Chen's 93-94 LP. I thought it was to the Mission? I think in some ways it might have been her best program ever. Not as beautiful as 95-96 maybe but so well choreographed, lots of interesting steps and great use of the ice and music. Way underappreciated by the bad judges.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimGOAT View Post
    The real dissapointment along with Slutskaya and Cohen's falls, Shizuka's conservative vs her dynamite practices performance, and the overall blah event, is Asada not getting to skate in 2006 due to the stupid age rule.
    I really like Mao for her perseverance and pushing herself to do extremely difficult, high-risk elements and I do wish her best luck in Sochi - wouldn't mind her getting the gold - BUT I don't think the age rule is stupid at all. There is much more to skating than just jumps and frankly I'd rather see technically slightly easier programs executed with grown-up presentation quality and overall more mature than baby jumping beans who still struggle to put a little soul into their programs.

    Olympics isn't a party for kids. 15 and a half is young enough if you ask me. And while some skaters might have to experience Mao's misfortune, it's not that older skaters don't suffer from the fact Olympics take place every four years. If they peak somewhere inbetween, they may be past their best times come the next Olympics too.

    And even if Mao was in that 10% of 15 year olds who already skate with maturity, it's better to keep the rule as it is because of the remaining 90%.

  10. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    That's one thing I never understood about Arakawa's performance. I knew Arakawa felt she could play it safe due to Cohen's performance, but Irina was coming up and she was capable of hitting it out of the ballpark. Unless Arakawa and Morosov knew something about the way Irina had been practicing (and if Irina wasn't hitting her routines consistently). I always wondered who would have won had Arakawa and Slutskaya performed similar jump content. I preferred Arakawa, but the judges may have given it to Slutskaya.
    I think Shizuka was just aiming for a medal.

  11. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzytalent View Post
    Well you are wrong. Irina skating cleanly with a 3-3 would get almost all 5.9s on the technical mark and maybe even some 6.0s (depending what scores Kwan got and which 3-3 she chose), and Kwan would not get straight 5.9s for presentation for that blah program even skated cleanly. Even her much better programs from the 2000 and 2001 Worlds skated brilliantly didnt. Her short program did since it was a signature program and she skated last of all the contenders. Irina got 3 5.9s for presentation even for her 55% of her best skate, so even if you were right on Kwan's presentation marks she would still lose. Irina would trounce Kwan in the technical mark and receive comparable presentation scores if both skated well. You are a Kwan fan so are in denial, fine, I dont care, I know I am right, and I am not even an Irina or Michelle fan so unlike you I have no bias in this case. I just notice the judges at the time liked her skating more all things equal, and it has nothing to do with liking her skating which frankly I dont (even less than Kwan, although both I find boring). You even picked Kwan winning the 2000 Worlds had all, she, Irina, and Maria skated cleanly I recall and Kwan had only 15% of the votes there, and yet you still picked her, LOL! You probably would pick Kwan as the winner in an all clean competition at event she was ever in, even if she reinstated for the 2010 Olympics and competed against Kim under COP that is what you would pick and argue defiantly to anyone who disagreed. You love Kwan to death so no point arguing anything involving her with you, that is fine, we all have our favorites.
    It is your opinion only. In my opinion, along with many others', Michelle would have won if she and Irina had both skated clean. Her second mark always wins over Irina. And it cannot be forgotten that this was the Olympics, and the world was watching. We would have seen the pairs controversy all over again if Irina, who lacked, shall we say, finesse, and whose histrionics in that Tosca program were almost comical, had won over a perfect Michelle.

  12. #112
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    Just since 2002.

    2002 Olympics

    Pairs- Elena & Anton won with a mistake so going clean they would for sure. Canada would still cry for gold medal probably though. Silver for crybaby Canadians. Bronze for Chinese.

    Ladies- Slutskaya wins easily if all skate cleanly. Silver is toss up between Cohen and Kwan. Cohen with triple lutz-triple toe wins silver over clean Kwan with no triple-triple, but Kwaw with the triple toe-triple toe wins silver if all are clean.

    Men- Plushenko wins if both he and Yagudin are clean. Stojko wins bronze if all are clean.


    2006

    Pairs- same podium as it was in exact same order if all are clean. Maybe Petrova & Tikhonov get a medal but I don't think so if the Zhangs and Shen & Zhao were totally clean.

    Men- same podium as it was again.

    Ladies- Slutskaya wins if all are clean. She won bronze with 4 mistakes. Arakawa is silver if all are clean, especialy if she includes a 3-3. Cohen is bronze if all are clean.


    2010

    Pairs- same podium in same order if all are clean.

    Men- Lambiel or Takahashi for gold, not sure which. Bronze to Abbott, Chan, Joubert or anyone but Lysacek or Plushenko if all are clean.

    Ladies- same podium in same order if all clean.


    Apart from ladies in 2002 and 2006, and mens in 2010 the mistakes really did not affect the podiums any. Other contenders did not capatilize on those who made mistakes by making them themselves.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    And it cannot be forgotten that this was the Olympics, and the world was watching. We would have seen the pairs controversy all over again if Irina, who lacked, shall we say, finesse, and whose histrionics in that Tosca program were almost comical, had won over a perfect Michelle.
    Funny you say that since in the short program when both skated cleanly and Michelle won on a 5-4 split, it turned out that was a big controversy, with everyone even Americans saying Irina should have won the short. I doubt it would be any controversy if both skated cleanly and Irina won, especialy if she did a harder technical program. European skating fans and experts generally preferred Irina to Michelle around then. Michelle was only preferred in the U.S really.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lnt175 View Post
    I agree with the 98-2010 placements but for Albertiville I'm surprised so many have Yamaguchi ahead of Harding if both went clean. Did we forget 91 nats and SA where Harding went clean and won. I'd say if all went clean there it'd be:
    1. Ito-with 2 3A's and one in combo possibly. (3A/3T or 3A/2t)
    2. Harding
    3. Yamaguchi
    Quote Originally Posted by Lnt175 View Post
    I agree Harding was a gold medal threat if she was in her 90 or 91 self, and others missing a jump or 2. I'm not sure if she'd win though if Yamaguchi and Ito were perfect. I think they would have had higher scores. Plus Ito as I said, had even more difficulty planned, and she wasn't s a slouch in the speed and spins department either. Yamaguchi was considered the most artistic, and even with her performance in Albertville had very high marks(wheter deserved or not is another story).
    It seems you changed your mind on clean Harding vs clean Yamaguchi?

    Had Harding skated her best in Albertville though she would have won over Yamaguchi and Ito with how they skated, regardless if she wouldnt have had they gone clean. Even Kerrigan might have won in Albertville skating cleanly with how everyone skated (although that is much less sure).

  15. #115
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    After 2014 Olympics I would say:

    1992: gold- Yamaguchi, silver- Ito, bronze- Harding
    1994: gold- Sato, silver- Bonaly, bronze- Kerrigan, Josee, or Baiul
    1998: gold- Lipinski, silver- Kwan, bronze- Butyrskaya
    2002: gold- Slutskaya, silver- Cohen, bronze- Kwan
    2006: gold- Slutskaya, silver- Cohen, bronze- Kostner
    2010: gold- Kim, silver- Asada, bronze- Rochette
    2014: gold- Lipnitskaya, silver- Sotnikova, bronze- Gold (Leonova had she competed), 4th- Kim, 5th- Asada, 6th- Kostner

    Pairs 2006: gold- Totmianina & Marinin, silver- Zhangs (silver or gold if they skate clean with quad throw, only bronze skating cleanly without it), bronze- Shen & Zhao
    Pairs 2010: gold- Savchenko & Szolkowy, silver- Shen & Zao or Kavaguti & Smirnov (they had highest base value in LP planned by 4 points didnt they)
    Pairs 2014: gold- Voloszhar & Trankov, silver- Savchenko & Szolkowy, bronze- Duhamel & Radford
    Mens 2014: gold- Hanyu, silver- Fernandez or Chan
    Mens 2010: gold- Lambiel, Takahashi, or Abbott, silver- Takahashi, Abbott, or Lysacek, bronze- Abbott, Lysacek, or Chan

    Would be the results of each Olympics had all skated cleanly.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuzytalent View Post
    Would be the results of each Olympics had all skated cleanly.
    I would say 2014 for the Ladies would stay the same. Yuna skated clean but had lower tech than Adelina in jumps, spins and steps.

    I think it is easy to say Yuna is the best Ladies skater in the world but much harder to justify the scoring system which does not really consider who is the best overall skater but only who scored the most points.

    To quote Scott Hamilton (who was trying hard to make sense of the results) "Adelina was like a cash register racking up points."

    The COP is a truly puzzling way to judge a beautiful sport like figure skating.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLucky View Post
    I would say 2014 for the Ladies would stay the same.
    Definitely not. Any Russian skater who had been entered in the 2014 ladies even would have beaten a clean Kim, clean Kostner, or clean Asada, be that Sotnikova, Lipnitskaya, Leonova, Pogo, Tuktamyheva, or whoever else. Putin made sure of that. Due to the errors of the Russians and only 2 Russian entries Kim and Kostner were able to medal.

    Gold as the decoy of the Russian plot would also have beaten clean Kim, clean Kostner, and clean Asada for sure.

  18. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLucky View Post
    The COP is a truly puzzling way to judge a beautiful sport like figure skating.
    This.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  19. #119
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    Pairs

    1992

    Gold- Miskutienok & Dmitriev
    Silver- Brasseur & Eisler
    Bronze- Kovarikova & Novotny

    1994

    Just as it was

    1998

    Gold- Berezhnaya & Sikhardlize
    Silver- Eltsova & Bushkov
    Bronze- Woetzel & Steuer or Ina & Dungen

    2002

    Just as was

    2006

    Just as was

    2010

    Gold- Savchenko & Szolkowy
    Silver- Shen & Zhao
    Bronze- Kavaguti & Smirnov

    2014

    Gold- Volosozhar & Trankov
    Silver- Savchenko & Szolkowy
    Bronze- Stolbova & Klimov


    Men

    1992

    Gold- Petrenko
    Silver- Browing
    Bronze- Barna

    1994

    Gold- Petrenko
    Silver- Browning
    Bronze- Stojko (only if he includes quad triple, otherwise Boitano or Urmanov)

    1998

    Gold- Stojko (again only if he does quad triple)
    Silver- Kulik
    Bronze- Eldredge

    2002

    Gold- Plushenko
    Silver- Yagudin
    Bronze- Honda

    2006

    as was

    2010

    Gold- Lambiel
    Silver- Takahashi
    Bronze- Abbott

    2014

    Gold- Hanyu
    Silver- Fernandez
    Bronze- Chan


    Dance

    2006 Olympics

    Gold- Navka & Kostomarov
    Silver- Denkova & Stayviski
    Bronze- Dubreuil & Lauzon

    other Olympics all as was


    Ladies

    1992

    Gold- Ito
    Silver- Yamaguchi
    Bronze- Harding

    1994

    Gold- Sato
    Silver- Bonaly
    Bronze- Chouinard

    1998

    Gold- Lipinski
    Silver- Kwan
    Bronze- Butyrskaya

    2002

    Gold- Slutskaya
    Silver- Cohen (with triple lutz-triple toe)
    Bronze- Kwan (maybe beating Cohen for silver if she does triple toe-triple toe)

    2006

    Gold- Arakawa
    Silver- Slutskaya
    Bronze- Cohen

    2010

    as was

    2014

    as was

  20. #120
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    As I understand this scenario includes those who had huge potential but never skated cleanly. If Emanuel Sandhu by some miracle had skated two perfect programs in 2006, could he have ended up on the podium?

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