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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    She gave away the National title as early as 2000. If only she didn't fall on that last 3toe, the judges might have gone with her instead, given how totally flat Kwan was throughout the competition and fell twice herself. It wasn't her Nationals to lose by any means, but she was in a position to win it until the final 30 seconds of that long program.

    2003 Nationals was up for debate. Kwan was very "on" throughout the competition but had limited technical content. She on the other hand had 3lutz3toe and 3toe half loop 3sal planned, and had the momentum going after winning her GPs and GPF, beating Slutskaya in Russia. It wasn't her Nationals to lose per se but she could have won it if clean.

    2004 GPF was also hers to win but alas it turned out to be the reason for Tarasova to fire her instead.

    2004 Nationals was clearly for her to win. She placed ahead of a clean (albeit shaky) Kwan after the short in 2004 and got a 6.0 even after a fall. They were setting her up to win (most probably because they already knew about Kwan's injury and the fact that Kwan was unlikely to remain as active as they wanted her to be). Ofcourse, with how Kwan skated, Cohen would have to be perfect (like at the post-Worlds Marshalls) to have a chance. The fact that she was far from perfect makes it moot but I do feel like this was her Nationals to lose, and she did lose it.

    2004 Worlds was also hers to win. Kwaqn was too far behihnd after the short and SLutskaya was not in peak form. She was 0.5 turn on the 3sal away from it. Arakawa was clearly superior in the free but judging from the scores Cohen might have done it if she was clean herself. The post-Worlds Marshall proved this point. (just a cheesefest I know but still)

    Having beaten Kwan at 2004 Worlds, 2005 Nationals was supposed to be much more interesting and she was at least a co-favorite. Alas. An off Kwan with the worse program of her life was still sufficient to win it all.

    I have mixed feelings about Turin. She entered it as a reigning world silver medalist and was first after the short program. I feel she was a strong medal contender but it was Slutskaya's competition to lose. Too bad it was Arakawa, not her, that walked through it.

    2006 Worlds was clear as day for her to lose.
    Even if all that is true I still think people are being way too hard on Cohen. So often in those events she was just one mistake away from winning. Just one move away. That is not a headcase. A headcase is someone who goes out and atleast half their jumps often. This is not Cohen. She was just unlucky to skate in an era almost all big titles were won by people doing a clean performance, whether was alternatively Slutskaya, Kwan, or Arakawa.

    Arakawa is a bigger headcase than Cohen. She went through almost her whole career 8th to 20th in big events, and even often not making it out of Japan. This is disgraceful for someone of her talent and ability level she showed at her best. She just happened to put it all together or half together twice at the right moments. Nobody calls her a headcase though, and she is lauded as some master competitor when she lost to Cohen 97% of the events they were in together over the years. What a joke.

    Many events from 2007-2010 were won by people with mistakes or who didn't have the whole package. That is my main point. The only exception was the 2010 Olympics. So Sasha wouldn't have to be perfect to win like she had to be from 2003-2006.

  2. #22

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    I've never seen people say Shizuka was a master competitor. I have seen people call Shizuka a literal one-hit-wonder by only winning a major competition when she skated to Turandot.

    Anyway, my comment was more about how although on paper, it looked as though Cohen could win, it somehow never happen. Since we're in the land of hypotheticals, I don't think it's unreasonable to think that she could have won more national titles or she could have lost them given her track record (even if she still placed high overall). As for Worlds, we're assuming she would have skated well and the competitors would have skated similarly. Cohen's jumping technique would have been dinged more heavily under the 2008-2010 code compared to the previous code. Also, the other skaters caught up to her in terms of doing high level spins, so she no longer had that major advantage. Cohen may have had the best spiral extensions, but Asada's extensions were also excellent while Kim's spirals are given high GOEs because of the speed and ice she covers (which are superior to Cohen's).

    So, we don't know what would have happened. I will say though that although things seem like they would have fallen in place for Cohen, as her career shows (not saying she's a headcase or a failure), just because it looks right on paper doesn't mean it will actually be right in reality.

  3. #23
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    Sometimes it take different people different rates to mature and get it together. Sasha was still very young in 2010, only 20. Many skaters hit their primes in their mid 20s and are still competitive to their late 20s so she had lots of time to get it together. The skating World was waiting for her to put it all together to crown her huge marks and big titles. They waited for it when Slutskaya and Kwan were at their dominant peak, and Hughes and Butyrskaya were still around. They waited through the whole crapshoot Arakawa/Slutskaya/Kwan era which Cohen was supposed to dominate but couldnt quite get it all together and get the good luck she needed. They would continue to wait for her as the new generation of stars came and eventually it would have happened if she just stayed a bit more patient.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanoverrated View Post
    Sometimes it take different people different rates to mature and get it together. Sasha was still very young in 2010, only 20. Many skaters hit their primes in their mid 20s and are still competitive to their late 20s so she had lots of time to get it together. The skating World was waiting for her to put it all together to crown her huge marks and big titles. They waited for it when Slutskaya and Kwan were at their dominant peak, and Hughes and Butyrskaya were still around. They waited through the whole crapshoot Arakawa/Slutskaya/Kwan era which Cohen was supposed to dominate but couldnt quite get it all together and get the good luck she needed. They would continue to wait for her as the new generation of stars came and eventually it would have happened if she just stayed a bit more patient.
    Sasha was born on Oct. 26, 1984. Do the math.

  5. #25
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    Sorry I meant I thought she was 20 in 2006. I guess it was 21 so I was one year off. Still young and young enough to peak in the 2007-2010 after her growing pains in 2003-2006.

    It seems nobody wants to acknowledge Sasha was unlucky to skate in the era she did. Kwan and Slutskaya are two of the greatest skaters of all time and more important wise two of the greatest competitors ever. This is hard for any skater who is not totally consistent (which I admit Sasha isnt or wasnt then) to cope with, no matter their skills. Shizuka was not consistent but at her best was one of the most talented overall skaters of the last 25 years and seemed to only bring her best when Sasha was on the verge of a big titles. There was also Hughes, Butyrskaya, and Suguri. It was a very tough era to skate in. What if she had been born at a different time and skated in another era. It is not all her fault she couldnt win more, and it doesnt mean she couldnt have started to win if she stayed in.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanoverrated View Post
    Well on TV Kim looks much faster than Sasha, but I saw Sasha skate live at Nationals a couple times and she was way faster than she looked on TV, and even faster than Kim looked on TV, although Kwan and a few others were still faster. I never saw Kim live but if she looks the same as TV unlike Sasha who looks way faster than TV live, than Sasha would probably be faster.
    Yes indeed - a remarkable piece of logic, and explained with incomparable clarity.
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  7. #27
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    It seemed to be in Sasha's DNA to always screw up when it counted so even if she kept going i don't see her winning any major championships beyond Nationals. The younger girls simply were better skaters then her and better all around skills.

  8. #28
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    I think she could not have been dominant by any stretch of the imagination, but she could hypothetically have won every US title. If her body stayed healthy, she could have dominated the USA ladies easily.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanoverrated View Post
    Sorry I meant I thought she was 20 in 2006. I guess it was 21 so I was one year off. Still young and young enough to peak in the 2007-2010 after her growing pains in 2003-2006.

    It seems nobody wants to acknowledge Sasha was unlucky to skate in the era she did. Kwan and Slutskaya are two of the greatest skaters of all time and more important wise two of the greatest competitors ever. This is hard for any skater who is not totally consistent (which I admit Sasha isnt or wasnt then) to cope with, no matter their skills. Shizuka was not consistent but at her best was one of the most talented overall skaters of the last 25 years and seemed to only bring her best when Sasha was on the verge of a big titles. There was also Hughes, Butyrskaya, and Suguri. It was a very tough era to skate in. What if she had been born at a different time and skated in another era. It is not all her fault she couldnt win more, and it doesnt mean she couldnt have started to win if she stayed in.
    Cohen skated against formidable competition, but by contrast Sumners and Thomas was just as, and probably tougher. She had to face Witt, who was even a tougher competitor than Kwan and Slutskaya put together. If Cohen had to skate from 1984-1988 she would have had to be essentially flawless in the free skate (and master figures) to win. It always just seemed a tall order for her to stay on her feet at alot of major competitions. In alot of ways she was erratic like Harding was. She did well for herself, but could have done alot better. In 07-10 quad I don't see her coming close to beating out Kim, Asada Ando or Rochette in 09-10, but like others said may have won some more nationals.

  10. #30
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    Cohen probably could have won major titles if her peak was 93-95 but then again you could say that about virtually everyone. 93-95 and probably 77-83/84 are definitely the "soft" times in ladies skating history. Essentialy with her consistency issues, technical limitations, knack for beating herself the bigger the opportunity, and her lack of basic skating and overall speed and power, it would probably take a weaker than usual era for Sasha to have won major title(s).

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Cohen probably could have won major titles if her peak was 93-95 but then again you could say that about virtually everyone. 93-95 and probably 77-83/84 are definitely the "soft" times in ladies skating history. Essentialy with her consistency issues, technical limitations, knack for beating herself the bigger the opportunity, and her lack of basic skating and overall speed and power, it would probably take a weaker than usual era for Sasha to have won major title(s).
    Not sure ! IMO, Baiul and Kerrigan had better basic skating, and Lu Chen was more consistent and had a better jumping technique !
    OK, I don't like Sasha's basics

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Not sure ! IMO, Baiul and Kerrigan had better basic skating, and Lu Chen was more consistent and had a better jumping technique !
    OK, I don't like Sasha's basics
    Kerrigan had better basic skating, stronger jumps, and judges actually liked her presentation (even if fans dont). However she also had no real pizzaz, so judges would have still liked Cohen more, she was even more inconsistent than Sasha ever was, and her often mediocre spins would have really stood out against Sasha`s excellent ones.

    Baiul struggled to manage a long program with 5 triples stood up, a couple of them two footed, no repeat triples other than a 2nd triple toe or salchow occasionally, and no triple-double combinations. Sasha on a bad day typically did much more content than that from 2003-2006.

    Chen was not a judges favorite in her day, especialy early on. Sasha`s spins and flexability moves would also have blown away Chen in that department, and she also had alot more pizzaz (which seem to be what makes judges notice you, the X factor, which is what Baiul benefited so much from) in her skating than young Chen had.

  13. #33
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    No. Not a good enough technical skater and not consistent enough. Also only skate she could have won even clean was 2008 Worlds, while there is no event she could win with her previous best World or Olympic performance (which was 2005 Worlds, still no clean). 2010 Olympics she wasnt capable of a medal of any color even with her previous best efforts.

  14. #34
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    Cohen better 2A than Kim?? What are you smoking? On good day, its above average, and on bad day, its barely squeaky landed. Cohen did has better spin position, speed on spin and flexibily and best layback spin and im sure she will get equal mark/GOE. But all her jumps are very tiny not sure how much GOE would she had gotten. Plus she only do two Flip, a Flutz and repeat the 3T or 3S with no 3+3...she would have been buried in TES (at least in jumps wise).

    Even other skaters like Sarah Mier, Rochett, Kostner etc are doing 3Lz+2T+2Lo combinations regularly. I can't recall how many time Cohen did a 3 jumps combination after the code change.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimGOAT View Post
    No. Not a good enough technical skater and not consistent enough. Also only skate she could have won even clean was 2008 Worlds, while there is no event she could win with her previous best World or Olympic performance (which was 2005 Worlds, still no clean). 2010 Olympics she wasnt capable of a medal of any color even with her previous best efforts.
    Even 2008 is a big 'IF'. The judges really start cracking down on 'edge call' and double wammy seriously after 2007. Assuming Cohen skate clean in SP, she would still get dinged -GOE for her Lutz, if one of her Flip or Lutz got <, that almost pretty much will wipe out the total value. LP, there is a deduction for her Flutz, plus she only do easier triple as repeat and landing 6 clean triples....we will never know.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimGOAT View Post
    No. Not a good enough technical skater and not consistent enough. Also only skate she could have won even clean was 2008 Worlds, while there is no event she could win with her previous best World or Olympic performance (which was 2005 Worlds, still no clean). 2010 Olympics she wasnt capable of a medal of any color even with her previous best efforts.
    Even 2008 is a big 'IF'. The judges really start cracking down on 'edge call' and double wammy seriously after 2007. Assuming Cohen skate clean in SP, she would still get dinged -GOE for her Lutz, if one of her Flip or Lutz got <, that almost pretty much will wipe out the total value. LP, there is a deduction for her Flutz, plus she only do easier triple as repeat and landing 6 clean triples....we will never know.

  17. #37
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    True. Cohen's tiny, flutzed, and underrotated jumps would begin to get compared post 2006 when they tightened the screws for wrong jump technique, while letting loose on the GOE for those with great jumps (eg- Kim, Rochette, Kostner). A single jump without a fall or obvious error from Kim and Cohen would probably be about 3 points difference per jump by then.

  18. #38
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    Unfortunately with a track record of choking in Freeskates (I promise I'm not a hater) she would never have been a dominant skater. She had previously dominated the Short Program but even her best short programs would have been surpassed by the likes of Yuna and Mao.

  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanoverrated View Post
    Since she wouldnt have the shadow of Kwan hanging over her, and when she went to Worlds or Olympics the shadow of Slutskaya hanging over her too. That wore on her mentally and made her inconsistent. She felt uncomfortable having to skate perfectly to win all the time, and having bigger names overshadow her. 2007-2010 was different. Only clean performances to win big events were Kim at Vancouver Olympics, while all others all top skaters made mistakes. She would have some breathing room and no big shadow to hurt her mentally and her fragile pysche.
    Are you Cohen's psychologist? How do you know any of this?

  20. #40

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    I have seen Sasha skate live (in 2005) and did not notice that she was particularly fast. She had many opportunities to win the big prizes, but always faltered. 2006 Worlds is perhaps the best example--reigning Olympic silver medalist and US Champion, no Kwan, Slutskaya or Arakawa. The title was hers to lose, and lose it she did. Sasha was a beautiful skater whose influence is still being felt--see some of the young Russian skaters and even Yu Na, with her I-spin. But she was not a good competitor. That her talents took her as far as they did despite her weaknesses, is itself impressive.

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