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  1. #21

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    Maybe we aren’t morally bankrupt but we have a culture that worships guns and violence. The kid in Georgia in the news this morning – wanted his shooting of police to be filmed! Everyone wants to be a version of High Plains Drifter.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by snoopy View Post
    Police dude says the boys wanted to be part of gang culture.
    Eh, I doubt there is a gang culture to be "part" of in Duncan, Oklahoma. What would their territory be--the dumpster behind the Sonic? This trio is just scum, plain and simple.

  3. #23

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    I refuse to think that our culture is "morally bankrupt", because that is a huge generalization. I work with, meet, and deal with remarkable, honest, wonderful people every day. I pity anyone who doesn't. However, good news is generally not thought to be news, but the way things "should" be. Credit is not given to true heroes, to true everyday hard-working and law-abiding people. So of course, the focus is on the negative, and the more sensationalistic, the better. It's easy to say that "society" is all falling apart, but really, it isn't ALL of society, and I guess that's what I take exception to. Yes, in my job, I deal with the dregs of society as well; but I definitely think the good people outweigh the bad.
    Kasey, I'm with you!

    Dear Australians, I assure you that the entire US is not as your former deputy prime minister described it; and not to be "avoided".

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post
    Vash, we have problems in the U.S. This was a sickening crime, killing someone for "fun." But I agree with Kasey, it does not reflect our society as a whole. In fact, I think that we need to see it in perspective in order to address these kinds of random violence. We are not a hopeless morally bankrupt society, if we were no one would raise a weary eyebrow when something like this happens.

    I think it is right to be appalled and concerned about incidents like this one, but our society is a strong one and we need to call on that fact when dealing with these problems. Don't lose hope.
    I would have agreed with you if the increase in violence had resulted in some kind of solutions, because there are people that are shocked by news like this one, myself included. There are at least some people in our society that want solutions, but when Congress refuses to act to curb the violence, it makes me very concerned. Our image in the world has taken several hits in the last few years because of the violence, yet nothing is done about it. I am not saying all is due to guns, but they are a factor, and the lack of emphasis on teaching what's right and what's wrong contributes to it. Look at the movies, the video games, the TV. It dehumanizes people in the minds of children who can be easily influenced. I could go on and on but it's very disturbing for me to see all this violence in our country.

  5. #25
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    Violent crime is down not up.
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  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post
    Violent crime is down not up.
    Mass killings are up, however (not related to this thread though).

    If we want to catch up with the rest of the world in keeping violent crime down, we have a long way to go. My concern is more about the attitude, than the numbers.

  7. #27
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    They're finally starting to take some action in gun happy Trenton.

    NJ Attorney General Announces Plan to Combat Surging Violent and Gun Crime in Trenton

    Dzurkoc blamed Rivera and the department’s leadership for allowing crime to balloon so badly in the first place.

    “We’re frustrated, we’re sick and tired of hearing the word ‘initiative,’” Dzurkoc said. “The bottom line is, they took a line on crime that’s way too soft in the city, and this is the end result.”

    Yet support for the Republican attorney general’s policy came from the area’s Democratic legislative delegation.

    “We’re at a breaking point here,” Assemblyman Reed Gusciora, D-Trenton, said in a statement. “Law abiding citizens should not have to fear leaving their homes and our dedicated police officers should not have to risk their life every time they respond to a call.”

    All of the stepped-up law enforcement work is being undertaken alongside a more than 40-member coalition of community activists, from pastors to civic watchdogs to council members. They were privately briefed on the effort before the news conference yesterday and will be asked to bring word and support of it to their neighborhoods, officials said.

    While the State Police will be targeting gun violence and gang members, at-large Trenton Councilwoman Kathy McBride told Hoffman she noticed a flaw in the plan: the lack of focus on the drug trade.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Mass killings are up, however (not related to this thread though).
    What is your definition of a mass killing? For example, was Jack the Ripper a mass killer?

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by heckles View Post
    What is your definition of a mass killing? For example, was Jack the Ripper a mass killer?
    If you have to ask that question, you need to familiarize yourself with what's happening in the USA in recent years.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    If you have to ask that question, you need to familiarize yourself with what's happening in the USA in recent years.
    Perhaps you need to familiarize yourself with global history, since murderous thugs of every nationality predate the advent of guns? What is your metric for determining this alleged increase, and does it account for other contributing factors, such as population growth and density, mental illness, economic and political instability, and other causal elements?

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    There are a lot of good people here, but murders are not rare at all. The only thing that's rare about this particular one is the motive- it's mind boggling that someone would shoot a person at random, for the fun of it. There is plenty of hatred and violence that may not be random like this. Nearly every day there is a story about someone shooting someone or a group. Just today, there was yet another gunman at an elementary school. Yes, there is something wrong here. Denying that is dangerous. If you don't recognize a problem, you cannot solve it. Unfortunately the good is not enough to overcome the bad at this time. I can fully understand why people outside the USA would be afraid. I live here and it worries me that there is so much violence here. There are crimes in other countries too, but they just don't occur as frequently as they do here.
    Murders are not rare, but I said "random murders" are exceedingly rare. Which they are.

    My coworker can only afford to live in a dangerous neighborhood. But thugs normally don't go after people like her, and they don't go after people like me when I visit her. It's gang-related violence, perpetrated against members of different gangs. What she has to fear (for herself and for her kids) is being collateral damage, but she normally doesn't fear being specifically targeted. I mean, I've heard of "initiation" killings that are supposedly random, but I figure, even streets gangs don't want those kinds of killings to call attention to the gang. Kill someone related to a cop or a lawyer, they're going down.

    This man being specifically targeted for absolutely no reason at all is what's exceedingly rare. Murders are not rare, but the kind that happen most often are the kind that people don't care much about, because they're gang-related murders in low-income areas. That's culture, and that can be changed with a directed mission.

    Completely, utterly random murders like this? I don't know if a directed mission could help fix it nationwide. You think video games and movies are violent here? We ship our video games and movies overseas too. It's not that superficial. There are a lot of factors at work.

    Quote Originally Posted by heckles View Post
    Eh, I doubt there is a gang culture to be "part" of in Duncan, Oklahoma. What would their territory be--the dumpster behind the Sonic? This trio is just scum, plain and simple.
    Because they're teenage idiots?

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anita18 View Post

    Because they're teenage idiots?
    Teenagers have latitude to do idiotic things, such as having a Tumblr account. Murdering an exchange student ventures off the idiotic reservation.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by heckles View Post
    Teenagers have latitude to do idiotic things, such as having a Tumblr account. Murdering an exchange student ventures off the idiotic reservation.
    Of course, but it's somewhat related to their propensity to overblow the importance of social status. I feel the same way about kids who die during hazing rituals. It's just not worth it, man.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anita18 View Post
    Of course, but it's somewhat related to their propensity to overblow the importance of social status.
    Nah, delusional self-importance isn't just a problem with teenagers, as the AARP proves. But, sure, that this contemptible clique thought they had the right to do this to another person suggests that low self-esteem wasn't their problem.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anita18 View Post
    Murders are not rare.....
    Actually, when you think about it, they are pretty rare. According to Wicki, the US rate was 4.7 in 2011. That means that for every 100,000 people, 4.7 were murdered. Extrapolate that out and you have a 1 in 21,000 (give or take) chance of being murdered - obviously some places have much higher risk than others, but for argument sake lets go with this number. If you look at this odds of dying graphic, fear of being murdered should be pretty low on your lists of things to be worried about unless you live somewhere like the South Side of Chicago.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8er1964 View Post
    Actually, when you think about it, they are pretty rare. According to Wicki, the US rate was 4.7 in 2011. That means that for every 100,000 people, 4.7 were murdered. Extrapolate that out and you have a 1 in 21,000 (give or take) chance of being murdered - obviously some places have much higher risk than others, but for argument sake lets go with this number. If you look at this odds of dying graphic, fear of being murdered should be pretty low on your lists of things to be worried about unless you live somewhere like the South Side of Chicago.
    Well yeah if you put it that way. There's a FAR greater risk of developing cancer in your lifetime than it is being murdered.

    And as you said, it depends on where you live. If you're living in a non-gang-infested neighborhood, on the whole you should be okay.

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8er1964 View Post
    Actually, when you think about it, they are pretty rare. According to Wicki, the US rate was 4.7 in 2011. That means that for every 100,000 people, 4.7 were murdered. Extrapolate that out and you have a 1 in 21,000 (give or take) chance of being murdered - obviously some places have much higher risk than others, but for argument sake lets go with this number. If you look at this odds of dying graphic, fear of being murdered should be pretty low on your lists of things to be worried about unless you live somewhere like the South Side of Chicago.
    According to Wikipedia the 2012 rate for the USA is 4.8. Now if you head north by only a few miles it is 1.6 in Canada. In Australia it is 1.0 and in Western Europe the highest is Belgium with 1.7 (I ignored Liechtenstein at 2.8 and Luxembourg at 2.5 because they only had 1 and 12 murders respectively.) Clearly there is something different about the US. IMHO, the easy availability of guns has something to do with it.
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by snoopy View Post
    Maybe we aren’t morally bankrupt but we have a culture that worships guns and violence. The kid in Georgia in the news this morning – wanted his shooting of police to be filmed!
    You mean the guy who had longterm mental health problems?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    If we want to catch up with the rest of the world in keeping violent crime down, we have a long way to go. My concern is more about the attitude, than the numbers.
    How are you defining "the rest of the world?"

    And how are you planning to assess "attitude" without having some actual data?

    Quote Originally Posted by heckles View Post
    What is your definition of a mass killing? For example, was Jack the Ripper a mass killer?
    No, he was a serial killer; he killed three or more people one at a time. A mass killer is someone who kills four or more people in a single event.

    Meanwhile, and more relevantly, murders committed by youths in the US are at a 30-year low.

    Quote Originally Posted by mag View Post
    Clearly there is something different about the US.
    The US is also clearly different from countries that have higher murder and crime rates, no?

    The US doesn't have the highest per capita murder rate in the world; according to WHO, the US is 108th. Contrary to popular belief, the US is 28th, not #1, on the list of gun murders per capita. The US doesn't even have the highest rate of firearms murders per homicide; that would be Puerto Rico, where a lot of people go on vacation. The US is 26th on that list.

    Is there are a strong correlation between gun ownership and gun homicide? Hard to say. In the Honduras, there are 6.2 guns per 100 people, but 68.43 homicides by firearm per 100,000 people (the highest gun homicide rate in the world). In Finland, there are 45.3 guns per 100 people, but the homicide by firearm rate is low.

    Figures (except the WHO one) are from UNODC--which data, by the way, does not include Russia, China or a few other countries that would undoubtedly be a factor in there in somewhere.

    There's no question that the US has a relatively high rate of violence for a developed nation. But if you are going to start talking about "the rest of the world," let's actually talk about the rest of the world.
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by mag View Post
    According to Wikipedia the 2012 rate for the USA is 4.8. Now if you head north by only a few miles it is 1.6 in Canada. In Australia it is 1.0 and in Western Europe the highest is Belgium with 1.7 (I ignored Liechtenstein at 2.8 and Luxembourg at 2.5 because they only had 1 and 12 murders respectively.) Clearly there is something different about the US. IMHO, the easy availability of guns has something to do with it.
    It seems like you're cherry-picking the globe via Wikipedia to support your point, so I'll do the same. The United States' other neighbor, Mexico, has stricter gun control laws, yet their rate is 23.7 in comparison to the US rate of 4.8. Brazil? Much stricter laws, and a rate of 21.0. Switzerland, which has the fourth-highest rate of gun ownership, has a rate of 0.7.
    Last edited by heckles; 08-22-2013 at 04:34 PM.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    The US doesn't even have the highest rate of firearms murders per homicide; that would be Puerto Rico, where a lot of people go on vacation. The US is 26th on that list.

    ...
    uh, *shudders*, Prancer, in what country is Puerto Rico?
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