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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    That's comparing years I was just thinking of the few weeks from euros to worlds!
    You are missing the point. My point was not comparing Europeans with worlds, or comparing the results from two different years from worlds. My point was that it is not so rare that someone would have one bad competition; one off when the things just don't work. You said that it is rare, I provided examples, you said that it is rare in dance so I provided examples with dancers. It is not so rare. The excitement/nerves/adrenalin just can mess things up.

  2. #62
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    What I'm dying to find out are what Alena Leonova's new programs are. She's been quite hush hush.

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    THANK YOU! Remember that when you think of I/K!
    Only if the team skates well though. That was the context. At 2013 worlds I/k were terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    You are missing the point. My point was not comparing Europeans with worlds, or comparing the results from two different years from worlds. My point was that it is not so rare that someone would have one bad competition; one off when the things just don't work. You said that it is rare, I provided examples, you said that it is rare in dance so I provided examples with dancers. It is not so rare. The excitement/nerves/adrenalin just can mess things up.
    It messed things up so bad that out of 20 teams they were 16th in TES. That's far beyond one mistake! And was almost unprecedented! That just a total overhaul including coaching change was probably necessary.

  4. #64

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    Alright, back to the test skates: What do we know about the programs of the Junior pairs or ice dancers? What are Vygalova/Zakroev's programs?
    "I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you're not in this world to live up to mine."

    Bruce Lee

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    Only if the team skates well though. That was the context. At 2013 worlds I/k were terrible.

    It messed things up so bad that out of 20 teams they were 16th in TES. That's far beyond one mistake! And was almost unprecedented! That just a total overhaul including coaching change was probably necessary.
    I am not talking about one mistake but about one completely messed up competition. (which means many mistakes within that one competition). If you are skating, you may find out that if you make one mistake you may not be able to get over it and the more you are thinking about it while still skating within that particular competition, the more you start messing up. And then it is just complete mess and now matter how hard you are trying, nothing works. I am not an elite skater, I started skating only as an adult, but once at a competition I made a huge mess of it too. Although I could do the program so well and have done hundreds of run throughs without any problem including all jump elements (I think I was supposed to do one jump on its own and three jump combinations - only singles), on this particular competition on the first jump I got suddenly nervous that I couldn't bend my knees. There wasn't any particular reason for me being so nervous, it wasn't my first competition and I knew I could do it well. My knees got completely stiff. If you can't bend, you can't jump...To be able to go up you need to go tiny bit down first, which comes from the knee bend. I have skated the whole program at the competition without being able to do any jump at all! After that first attempted jump I completely panicked and after the second attempted jump I was so shocked that the rest of the program did not have a chance at all. Something similar sometimes happens to elite skaters. I/K obviously did not have to do the jumps, but if they went to the competition knowing that they can potentially do well, then messed up on first or second element, then panicked that now they can't afford to make more mistakes and the more they were thinking about it, the worse they skated. Skating is connected a lot to confidence; if you loose it, suddenly you skate so much worse.

    Besides, I wouldn't be so concentrating on the fact that once, during one competition I/K was 16th in TES out of 20 teams. For example, Carolina Kostner had worlds 2009 where she did not land one clean triple in her FS. One can say that most of novices have triples and a senior should be able to land at least some. Does that mean that she is a rubbish skater? It doesn't, she just messed up one competition. Made one mistake, got nervous and then did not manage to regain control and the mistakes followed one after the other. We are human, we are not all perfect.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    Besides, I wouldn't be so concentrating on the fact that once, during one competition I/K was 16th in TES out of 20 teams. For example, Carolina Kostner had worlds 2009 where she did not land one clean triple in her FS. One can say that most of novices have triples and a senior should be able to land at least some. Does that mean that she is a rubbish skater? It doesn't, she just messed up one competition. Made one mistake, got nervous and then did not manage to regain control and the mistakes followed one after the other. We are human, we are not all perfect.
    Actually Carolina has had many melt downs in competition performances. Worlds 2006 which I attended, was among them, and that's just one example. She went through many years of completly bombing the LP. It's only in the recent 3 years that she has learned to deliver when she needed to. Her artistry also developed at the same time. A skater doesn't have to be perfect in singles, but in ice dance there is not a lot of room for errors. It's possible that I&K will be late bloomers like Carolina, Shizuka, Paul Wylie. Unfortunately I can't think of an ice dance team right now that was a late bloomer. IMO a lot of the criticism of I&K has been for their choice of programs, rather than one bad competition. I am hoping that it was an aberration and they learned from it, so we can look forward to better performances this season. They are wonderful skaters and I would love to see them realize their potential, like Carolina realized hers.

  7. #67

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    I don't think anyone can call I/K late bloomers, considering that they have already won junior worlds and have been medalling at GP. Late bloomer I imagine someone who has never won competition and then suddenly in their 20s medals at seniors. Let's say, Menshov. Totally unknown and then suddenly started placing high within Russian senior nationals.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    I don't think anyone can call I/K late bloomers, considering that they have already won junior worlds and have been medalling at GP. Late bloomer I imagine someone who has never won competition and then suddenly in their 20s medals at seniors. Let's say, Menshov. Totally unknown and then suddenly started placing high within Russian senior nationals.
    Not necessarily. There are skaters that showed early promise but struggled later, then they rose up in the their mid twenties and reached the top. I call that a late bloomer. Winning junior worlds is no gurantee of a great senior career. Many junior world champs didn't make it in the seniors. Even an early world medal does not mean that skater cannot be a late bloomer. He/she could fall off for years before coming back. Hard to tell if that's how I&K's career would be, but I just wanted to explain what a late bloomer could be. Shizuka was definitely one. So is Carolina, in spite of her early bronze & silver at worlds. She was still struggling but finally found her groove after the 2010 Olympics. Paul Wylie, Maria Butyrskaya are other examples of late bloomers.

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    I am not talking about one mistake but about one completely messed up competition. (which means many mistakes within that one competition). If you are skating, you may find out that if you make one mistake you may not be able to get over it and the more you are thinking about it while still skating within that particular competition, the more you start messing up. And then it is just complete mess and now matter how hard you are trying, nothing works. I am not an elite skater, I started skating only as an adult, but once at a competition I made a huge mess of it too. Although I could do the program so well and have done hundreds of run throughs without any problem including all jump elements (I think I was supposed to do one jump on its own and three jump combinations - only singles), on this particular competition on the first jump I got suddenly nervous that I couldn't bend my knees. There wasn't any particular reason for me being so nervous, it wasn't my first competition and I knew I could do it well. My knees got completely stiff. If you can't bend, you can't jump...To be able to go up you need to go tiny bit down first, which comes from the knee bend. I have skated the whole program at the competition without being able to do any jump at all! After that first attempted jump I completely panicked and after the second attempted jump I was so shocked that the rest of the program did not have a chance at all. Something similar sometimes happens to elite skaters. I/K obviously did not have to do the jumps, but if they went to the competition knowing that they can potentially do well, then messed up on first or second element, then panicked that now they can't afford to make more mistakes and the more they were thinking about it, the worse they skated. Skating is connected a lot to confidence; if you loose it, suddenly you skate so much worse.

    Besides, I wouldn't be so concentrating on the fact that once, during one competition I/K was 16th in TES out of 20 teams. For example, Carolina Kostner had worlds 2009 where she did not land one clean triple in her FS. One can say that most of novices have triples and a senior should be able to land at least some. Does that mean that she is a rubbish skater? It doesn't, she just messed up one competition. Made one mistake, got nervous and then did not manage to regain control and the mistakes followed one after the other. We are human, we are not all perfect.
    That's a good personal illuminating story! With some good insights! It was one bad competition for I/k and they have apparently taken that route of Believing It was a one off because they seemingly have made no changes to any of their skating. Of course they werent at the recent test skates as no morozov students were so I am just assuming because they're still with him for whatever personal or professional reasons. With the program they were skating they were left with no possible room for errors and when they totally botched the spin and then a lift and then totally went down the tubes maybe a different program and training environment would have been helpful. But their professional is all wrapped up in the personal of one skater on the team.

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    That's a good personal illuminating story! With some good insights! It was one bad competition for I/k and they have apparently taken that route of Believing It was a one off because they seemingly have made no changes to any of their skating. Of course they werent at the recent test skates as no morozov students were so I am just assuming because they're still with him for whatever personal or professional reasons. With the program they were skating they were left with no possible room for errors and when they totally botched the spin and then a lift and then totally went down the tubes maybe a different program and training environment would have been helpful. But their professional is all wrapped up in the personal of one skater on the team.
    They have made changes to their team - Morozov is the primary coach, but this summer they have also worked with Shpilband and Grishuk is now a permanent part of their coaching team. And they weren't at the recent test skates because they weren't the official test skates - Gachinski was not there, nor was Plushenko, R/T, the top pairs teams and so on.

  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moka-Ananas View Post
    What are Vygalova/Zakroev's programs?
    SP - "Tango of Vampires" (Aurore du Mal by Benny Richter, Marc Terenzi)
    LP - Giselle

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by morqet View Post
    They have made changes to their team - Morozov is the primary coach, but this summer they have also worked with Shpilband and Grishuk is now a permanent part of their coaching team. And they weren't at the recent test skates because they weren't the official test skates - Gachinski was not there, nor was Plushenko, R/T, the top pairs teams and so on.
    Seems like Morozov is like poison! You can have a big glass of one drink but one drop of poison and it's all over!! Maybe Grishuk can be helpful. I actually forgot about that because I only read as a quote from Laironov a few months ago! But the whole issue of the poison still being present just puts the whole thing in jeopardy. They were able to have some good results despite Ghost and he's still around. LOL now it is like could Grishuk be the antidote?

    Because I saw some vidoes of all skaters but I/K it's like their not doing anything! R/T, Plushenko, Gachinski all recently seen in videos!
    Last edited by caseyedwards; 08-21-2013 at 09:14 PM.

  13. #73

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    That's a bit melodramatic to compare Morozov to a poison. A few seasons ago he was the most successful Russian coach (measured by the results of his students at worlds). With skating, one moment you are on the top, the next minute you are down. The thing is, you won't stay down for a long (especially if you are well known Russian coach - their Federation would not let such resource go to waste), so in a few seasons he may be again at the top. I do understand why some posters here don't like him, but he seems to be liked by his students, he seems to be doing a good job as a coach generally (yes, I know the last worlds were not successful for any of his students, but there was plenty of successful competitions to balance that). So although I may not agree with his personal life, I wouldn't go as far as comparing him to a poison.

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    That's a bit melodramatic to compare Morozov to a poison. A few seasons ago he was the most successful Russian coach (measured by the results of his students at worlds). With skating, one moment you are on the top, the next minute you are down. The thing is, you won't stay down for a long (especially if you are well known Russian coach - their Federation would not let such resource go to waste), so in a few seasons he may be again at the top. I do understand why some posters here don't like him, but he seems to be liked by his students, he seems to be doing a good job as a coach generally (yes, I know the last worlds were not successful for any of his students, but there was plenty of successful competitions to balance that). So although I may not agree with his personal life, I wouldn't go as far as comparing him to a poison.
    It's very possible his role as a coach reached its worst peak In 2013 like the Kostner 2009 worlds or Verner 2008 worlds. That every program he did and all his skaters did poorly at one point or another or the biggest event of the season. Leonova was poor all season and had to switch programs, and Takahashi did poorly and switched programs, and I/K did well but had a program so criticized and then failed at worlds. Amodio was pretty bad all season and had a peak at Euros. Voronov was silver at Russian nationals but bad euros. Then Amodio and Voronov left. It was so bad his 2012-2013. Maybe he was just totally off and that would lead people to leave. Like Kostner left Huth and Verner left too at the ends of those season. Maybe he'll have a comeback!!

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by reut View Post
    All three programs for the coming season (including exhibitions) for both Adelina and Maxim were choreographed by Peter Tchernyshev.
    Thanks, reut. Meanwhile, I've also watched the part of Kovtun's FS which is available on youtube and I'm afraid I can't praise either the skater or the choreographer. If the intention of Tchernyshev was to make Kovtun skate with freedom and abandonment, I would say Kovtun doesn't seem to have the skills yet for the job. While I really appreciated the energy he put into the performance, I thought he tended to overdramatize the movement and become frantic. Maybe he'll learn to calm down a little as the season progresses.

    Re Sotnikova's Ex: Piazzola's music is a blend of tango and jazz and I personally got neither a tango feel nor a jazz feel from her program.

  16. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    Re Sotnikova's Ex: Piazzola's music is a blend of tango and jazz and I personally got neither a tango feel nor a jazz feel from her program.
    Yeah you're not supposed to

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    Quote Originally Posted by N_Halifax View Post
    What I'm dying to find out are what Alena Leonova's new programs are. She's been quite hush hush.
    Why do you care what background music she uses for her crossovers into jumps and spins?

  18. #78

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    polina agafonova at test skates

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9t9nFDYYl0

    feels like she is around for such a long tim. i actually like this program; seems like she really wants to fight to prove something. back from 3s3t to 3lz3to. will be nice to see how she can survive this season with all those younger girls.

  19. #79

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    I don't think she can survive with those younger girls. Unfortunately they are better. Her chance was last year. If she managed to stand out (for example at nationals) like Gosviani did, she would have a chance to be sent this season for senior B competitions and if she did well there, she would establish herself as decent senior (perhaps not the same as Sotnikova/Tuktamysheva/Lipnitskaya, but at least a decent senior. Unfortunately she did not qualify last year for senior nationals and at junior nationals she did not particularly managed to stand out. In juniors there is such a high level of competition within Russia and it is so many of them who have 3Lz-3T and 3F that I think it will be harder to stand out in juniors than in seniors. I think only one or two competitors at junior nationals did not have triple triple.

  20. #80

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    I just watched Kovtun's new FS. The version he showed at the test skate is an abridged one, right? He was finished after barely 3:40.
    "I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you're not in this world to live up to mine."

    Bruce Lee

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