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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    I am glad you admit that you are trashing them. I don't think they deserve it though! If you don't like them, don't watch them, but why bother trashing skaters who put so much time and effort into skating? Some skaters I like, some I don't like. Someone's skating makes me happy/excited and someone's skating just doesn't do anything for me; sometimes I can't even explain why. But why bother trashing the skaters?
    I don't see anybody "trashing" anything. Some people are saying they would like to see Ilinykh & Katsalapov skate better programmes. It's going to become a pretty dull message board if everybody just posts only about what they like. Nothing wrong with a bit of criticism and discussion.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    I am glad you admit that you are trashing them. I don't think they deserve it though! If you don't like them, don't watch them, but why bother trashing skaters who put so much time and effort into skating? Some skaters I like, some I don't like. Someone's skating makes me happy/excited and someone's skating just doesn't do anything for me; sometimes I can't even explain why. But why bother trashing the skaters?
    But as I said, I do like them, very much. I would love to just give up on them and stop watching, but they always have flashes of brilliance to reel me back in. It's sad to see them in 9th place because I know they're better than that, but I don't see that the judges or some external forces are to blame. I used to defend them when Zhulin originally said they were lazy, but as that narrative continues and based on what I see in the skating, I find it hard to believe they are just victims of slander about their training habits. Just ask any Sandhu fan how they felt over the years.

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    It's certainly possible that after they almost won euros I/k could have said they were there and didnt have to work harder or at all because they were doing well. There are just so few examples of the kind of extreme technical collapse I/k had at worlds in ice dance. Either they pretty much stopped training or didn't train hard or they totally lost confidence in an fd agreed to be the worst ever or the third theory that they just worked so hard they overdid it and exhausted themselves because they were so close at euros. Zhulin has said since they left him they hate training and he got validated tremendously by their 16th place out of 20 Tes at worlds.

  4. #44

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    There are many examples of skaters messing up competition. Kostner worlds 2009, Verner Olympics 2010, Gedevanishvilli Worlds 2010 and 2013, Czisny worlds 2012, Mao Asada had a bad season a few season's back, both Adelina and Liza messed up worlds 2013...

    I don't believe that I/K suddenly stopped working hard. I don't even think that it was about lost confidence. I think they had their best season, getting decent results and therefore they were too much aware that they could do quite well at worlds and sometimes when you put yourself under too much pressure, things just don't work. I think we keep forgetting the amount of pressure these elite skaters are under. And I think the better results you had, the better you expect from yourself and are putting yourself under even more and more pressure. I think exactly the same happened to Adelina and Liza. After successful Europeans they put themselves under too much pressure. And it is not only them putting themselves under pressure. It seems that suddenly everyone expects the results, so there is also the pressure from the people around them.

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    I&K are still very young. I am sure that with time they will figure out how to deliver when it counts. Their skating is beautiful. It's a matter of time before they put everything together. JMO.

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    Technically speaking, I/K has a few flaws: her flexibility seems lacking; their lifts are year after year uninteresting, which I suspect has something to do with his upper body strength; their step sequences aren't as steady and big as the top 2 teams. That being said, they are a beautiful team and has stunning qualities (esp. speed) no other teams have, which is the reason why everyone had so much hope for them. But I've convinced myself that I/K isn't a "genius" team. They might just have to climb the ladder like everyone else.

    They need to go to Zueva post-Sochi. Zueva, not Shpilband. They need a woman to whip them into shape.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    There are many examples of skaters messing up competition. Kostner worlds 2009, Verner Olympics 2010, Gedevanishvilli Worlds 2010 and 2013, Czisny worlds 2012, Mao Asada had a bad season a few season's back, both Adelina and Liza messed up worlds 2013...

    I don't believe that I/K suddenly stopped working hard. I don't even think that it was about lost confidence. I think they had their best season, getting decent results and therefore they were too much aware that they could do quite well at worlds and sometimes when you put yourself under too much pressure, things just don't work. I think we keep forgetting the amount of pressure these elite skaters are under. And I think the better results you had, the better you expect from yourself and are putting yourself under even more and more pressure. I think exactly the same happened to Adelina and Liza. After successful Europeans they put themselves under too much pressure. And it is not only them putting themselves under pressure. It seems that suddenly everyone expects the results, so there is also the pressure from the people around them.
    I know there are plenty of singles skaters but dance teams? It's rare! Losing 5 points in Tes in ice dance is actually difficult to do unless you totally miss an element! Like what happened to p/b in 2011. They missed a whole element so their score dropped a lot but I/k were just absent from their fd. They had been to two previous worlds. Liza and Adelina have an excuse that it was their first worlds. they almost win euros and then they get so much overwhelming pressure by cant deal? B/s is the number one team with all the pressure. It's impossible for them to lose either a SD or fd at Russian nationals. It's impossible to beat b/s in Russia. They've been the number one team since worlds 2010. Every other team is just b/s backup. Sotnikova and tuktamisheva are actually close in fed support and are both under fed pressure but I/k is in such a second place with all focus and attention on b/s. A lot because of the non stop bashing zhulin and others heap on I/k. All the ice dance eggs are in the b/s basket.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    I&K are still very young. I am sure that with time they will figure out how to deliver when it counts. Their skating is beautiful. It's a matter of time before they put everything together. JMO.
    The expectation for people their age are much greater now. They aren't that young they can't medal at a worlds. The shibutani's did. Dance is getting younger and younger. Younger teams them could replace them on the team for Sochi.

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    I


    The expectation for people their age are much greater now. They aren't that young they can't medal at a worlds. The shibutani's did. Dance is getting younger and younger. Younger teams them could replace them on the team for Sochi.
    Yes like Stepanova/Bukin who are going to be on their heels very soon maybe even R/T heels too !
    So there's not that much time

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    The expectation for people their age are much greater now. They aren't that young they can't medal at a worlds. The shibutani's did. Dance is getting younger and younger. Younger teams them could replace them on the team for Sochi.
    The Shibs have been dumped, but more to the point, V/M and D/W jumped the queue when they were very young -- V/M even won the FD when the Del/Shoes won their WC title -- and the question every since has been whether this would be the trend for ice dance once most of the dancers had been brought up in the system, or whether they were more like Plushenko and Yagudin, successful as very young prodigies/outliers to whom everyone else's progress would be measured indefinitely.

    The Shibs, I/K, and C/P have shown that the judges are willing to give and take, and that teams who've done well in the past aren't held up as much when making major mistakes or being rusty from injury. I can't imagine that W/P or P/B would have dropped under C/L under 6.0, like Chait/Saknovsky didn't even beat Winkler/Lohse in the FD at 2003 Euros, even though W/L fell at the beginning of the FW sequence and pretty much lost the element.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    The expectation for people their age are much greater now. They aren't that young they can't medal at a worlds. The shibutani's did. Dance is getting younger and younger. Younger teams them could replace them on the team for Sochi.
    The Shibs have been eighth at worlds two years in a row and the one year they did medal was because P/B had a fall that gave them a two point deduction. Their medal that year was more of a gift than anything.

    I/K are very young and had a bad competition last year at worlds, it happens. They way ARE too young to be written off. They (she in particular) are one of the youngest top teams in the world.

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    I know there are plenty of singles skaters but dance teams? It's rare!
    Rare? Let's look at dancers then. Last year Bobrova/Soloviev were 7th at worlds (didn't deliver), Shibutanis went from 3rd at worlds in 2011 to 8th at worlds in 2012 and 2013, Pechalat/Bourzat 6th at this worlds from 3rd last year (I know he was injured so they didn't have time to practice). Skaters are under pressure and sometimes they don't manage to skate their best, and that includes ice dancers.

  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by nuge View Post
    Yes like Stepanova/Bukin who are going to be on their heels very soon maybe even R/T heels too !
    So there's not that much time
    Yes I/k r/t should be really afraid of s/b! Either they could knock off both team and place second or just r/t they could really make a huge debut! Then there is also S/z too with their gp medal already.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    The Shibs have been dumped, but more to the point, V/M and D/W jumped the queue when they were very young -- V/M even won the FD when the Del/Shoes won their WC title -- and the question every since has been whether this would be the trend for ice dance once most of the dancers had been brought up in the system, or whether they were more like Plushenko and Yagudin, successful as very young prodigies/outliers to whom everyone else's progress would be measured indefinitely.

    The Shibs, I/K, and C/P have shown that the judges are willing to give and take, and that teams who've done well in the past aren't held up as much when making major mistakes or being rusty from injury. I can't imagine that W/P or P/B would have dropped under C/L under 6.0, like Chait/Saknovsky didn't even beat Winkler/Lohse in the FD at 2003 Euros, even though W/L fell at the beginning of the FW sequence and pretty much lost the element.
    Seems like it's more wide open for sure! That v/m and d/w were the tip of the iceberg! S/s showed that even if they have been dumped because of their technical issues! First worlds 4th place in SD! Chock and bates already in line for a world medal.

    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    The Shibs have been eighth at worlds two years in a row and the one year they did medal was because P/B had a fall that gave them a two point deduction. Their medal that year was more of a gift than anything.

    I/K are very young and had a bad competition last year at worlds, it happens. They way ARE too young to be written off. They (she in particular) are one of the youngest top teams in the world.
    First worlds 4th place in SD for s/s so immediately they were seen as world medal quality.

    Yeah I/k were really only bad at worlds in 2012/2013 but it was one of those bad performances that turn people's heads! Especially with the program they had. So it was a double whammy of extreme awful!

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    Rare? Let's look at dancers then. Last year Bobrova/Soloviev were 7th at worlds (didn't deliver), Shibutanis went from 3rd at worlds in 2011 to 8th at worlds in 2012 and 2013, Pechalat/Bourzat 6th at this worlds from 3rd last year (I know he was injured so they didn't have time to practice). Skaters are under pressure and sometimes they don't manage to skate their best, and that includes ice dancers.
    That's comparing years I was just thinking of the few weeks from euros to worlds!

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    First worlds 4th place in SD for s/s so immediately they were seen as world medal quality.
    Who saw that? One good competition, even a world medal doesn't mean your skating career will amount to anything after that. Look at Artur Gachinski.

  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    Who saw that? One good competition, even a world medal doesn't mean your skating career will amount to anything after that. Look at Artur Gachinski.
    He is twenty years old and his career is far from over. Also, he won his European silver and a Nationals silver after that Worlds medal, thankyou very much.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    He is twenty years old and his career is far from over. Also, he won his European silver and a Nationals silver after that Worlds medal, thankyou very much.
    You've apparently missed the point, a world medal doesn't equal greatness in the future no matter if your 15 years old or 25 years old. That was the point in the previous posts. If someone wins a world medal doesn't mean someone can't get 8th or 18th for the rest of their career.

  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    Who saw that? One good competition, even a world medal doesn't mean your skating career will amount to anything after that. Look at Artur Gachinski.
    Both of those medal wins in 2011 show that youth is no barrier to success and if they kept their form and didn't collapse technically they may have maintained their medal wins. They could recover their technical abilities and medal again in the future but at their young age they had the ability to medal at the worlds. When S/S and Gachinski placed 4th in their SP/SD and then reached 3rd in the FP/FD it showed first worlds young age meant nothing. So I/K being young is not an excuse for their failure not to medal at a worlds yet in 3 tries.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    Both of those medal wins in 2011 show that youth is no barrier to success and if they kept their form and didn't collapse technically they may have maintained their medal wins. They could recover their technical abilities and medal again in the future but at their young age they had the ability to medal at the worlds. When S/S and Gachinski placed 4th in their SP/SD and then reached 3rd in the FP/FD it showed first worlds young age meant nothing. So I/K being young is not an excuse for their failure not to medal at a worlds yet in 3 tries.
    Failure? Then what is the excuse for anyone who won one a medal and then fell off the podium? Including the Shibs and Gachinski? Do you know how many people have never medaled at worlds in three tries? Winning a medal doesn't mean you will ever win one again, especially in the case of the Shibs someone had to fall for them to medal and then just barely. Can they win another sure just like I/K can win, especially after Sochi.

  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    Failure? Then what is the excuse for anyone who won one a medal and then fell off the podium? Including the Shibs and Gachinski? Do you know how many people have never medaled at worlds in three tries? Winning a medal doesn't mean you will ever win one again, especially in the case of the Shibs someone had to fall for them to medal and then just barely. Can they win another sure just like I/K can win, especially after Sochi.
    The excuses for shibs and gachinski were their technical collapses! Him with quads and shibs with twizzles and steps! It's true that even if they had maintained those things they still may not had medaled in 2012 or 2013 and do have greater chances after Sochi. They can fail to win a medal but not be failures.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    They can fail to win a medal but not be failures.
    THANK YOU! Remember that when you think of I/K!

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