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  1. #21
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    I really don't feel that sorry for the skaters who missed the team or medals because the pros returned this one time. I think this was an unusual situation in which the winter athletes benefitted from having another Olympics only two years after the last Olympics. It's a little unfair to allow skaters a chance to win an Olympic medal only two years after the last Olympics while the summer athletes still had to wait four years. Why not throw something in to make the competition more interesting for this unprecedented time?

    Of course, the other side of the argument is that by having it two years later, the next chance to compete at the Olympics without the pros would not have been in 1996, but 1998...6 years after Albertville rather than 4.
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  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I really don't feel that sorry for the skaters who missed the team or medals because the pros returned this one time. I think this was an unusual situation in which the winter athletes benefitted from having another Olympics only two years after the last Olympics. It's a little unfair to allow skaters a chance to win an Olympic medal only two years after the last Olympics while the summer athletes still had to wait four years. Why not throw something in to make the competition more interesting for this unprecedented time?

    Of course, the other side of the argument is that by having it two years later, the next chance to compete at the Olympics without the pros would not have been in 1996, but 1998...6 years after Albertville rather than 4.
    That's an interesting take on it.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I really don't feel that sorry for the skaters who missed the team or medals because the pros returned this one time. I think this was an unusual situation in which the winter athletes benefitted from having another Olympics only two years after the last Olympics. It's a little unfair to allow skaters a chance to win an Olympic medal only two years after the last Olympics while the summer athletes still had to wait four years. Why not throw something in to make the competition more interesting for this unprecedented time?

    Of course, the other side of the argument is that by having it two years later, the next chance to compete at the Olympics without the pros would not have been in 1996, but 1998...6 years after Albertville rather than 4.
    Then theres the athletes though who both would/might have been stronger at an Olympics in 96 than 94 or 98 as 96 was much more their physical peak, and had to deal with reinstated pros on top of that. Athletes like Lu Chen, Shishkova & Naumov, Kovarikova & Novotny (possibly based on their 95 form), Rahkammo & Kokko (again possibly based on their 95 form), Sato (possibly), Gritschuk & Platov (although they won anyway), Stojko, Eldredge.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Then theres the athletes though who both would/might have been stronger at an Olympics in 96 than 94 or 98 as 96 was much more their physical peak, and had to deal with reinstated pros on top of that. Athletes like Lu Chen, Shishkova & Naumov, Kovarikova & Novotny (possibly based on their 95 form), Rahkammo & Kokko (again possibly based on their 95 form), Sato (possibly), Gritschuk & Platov (although they won anyway), Stojko, Eldredge.
    Well, they can't control individual athletes who would have been stronger in 1996 rather than 1994 or 1998. Generally, it seems like there's an advantage to have a Winter Olympics only two years after the last Olympics. At least to those who just competed in 1992 or those who aged and peaked in a way to benefit in 1994. For the up-and-comers, it may be seen as a disadvantage as they would have to wait longer than usual.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  5. #25
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    A more interesting topic is what if there was a 1996 Olympics. I think the podiums would have been:

    Pairs- Gold- Kovarikova Novotny, Silver Shishkova Naumov, Bronze any of Eltsova & Bushkov, Woetzel Stool, Meno Sand, Kazhkova Dmitriev, whoever was best on day

    Ladies- Gold Sato, Silver Baiul or Chen

    Men- Gold Urmanov or Stojko, Bronze Eldredge or kulik or Candelero or Zagorodniuk, whoever was best on day, given his history of rising in Olympics probably Candelero. Definitely not Galindo despite his World medal that year.

    Dance- Gold Usova & Zhulin or Gritschuk & Platov, depends on programs and federation support just like 94, bronze- Rakammo & Kokko or Krylova & Ovsiannikov

  6. #26
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    I agree that the mens and ladies podiums at the 94 Olympics wouldn't likely have been affected without the reinstating pros.

    In dance, I think without the threat from T&D, the Russian support would have remained with Usova/Zhulin, which would have gotten them gold. I think the team to move into the medals would have been Rahkamo/Kokko. Maniot/Lavanchy were not really that good and there was a lot of popular sentiment for the Finns, who had a very nice program indeed. So my guess for the dance podium would be
    1 Usova/Zhulin
    2 Grishuk/Platov
    3 Rahkamo/Kokko

    Pairs would have been pretty open. Brasseur & Eisler were current Worlds Champions, but I always thought it was a bit of a sympathy award. Folks felt badly for them for losing to G&G in 1990, then getting totally beaten by M&D at 91 Worlds and 92 Olympics. I think it likely they would have been somewhere on the podium, even if their skating was the antithesis of what most judges liked to see in their pairs champions.

    Top 6 from 93 and 94 Worlds were the same six pairs, and I think the podium would have come from these. I think the top 3 at 94 Worlds would very likely have been the Olympic podium as well. Personally, I would have loved to see Kovarikova/N skate cleanly and take it all, but Radka had grown since their impressive 92 performances and it affected her consistency.

    1 Brasseur/Eisler
    2 Wötzel/Steuer
    3 Shishkova/Naumov
    4 Kovaříková/Novotný
    5 Meno/Sand
    6 Eltsova/Bushkov

    Top 6 at 94 Worlds:
    1 Shishkova/Naumov
    2 Brasseur/Eisler
    3 Eltsova/Bushkov
    4 Wötzel/Steuer
    5 Kovaříková/Novotný
    6 Meno/Sand

    Had there been a 1996 Olympics, my guess podiums would have been:
    Men: 1 Stojko, 2 Eldredge, 3 Kulik - Urmanov may have gotten into the medals if one of these three faltered.
    Ladies: 1 Kwan, 2 Lu, 3 Slutskaya (same as 96 Worlds) - I don't think Baiul would have been competitive by 96 because of her growth spurt, nor would Sato be able to compete, jump-wise with the top 3 ladies.
    Pairs: 1 Eltsova/Bushkov, 2 Wötzel/Steuer, 3 Shishkova/Naumov - This and the hypothetical no-pros 94 podiums would have been about the weakest pair podium ever. Makes me glad there was no 96 Olympics.
    Dance: 1 Grishuk/P, 2 Krylova/Ovsyannikov, 3 Bourne/Kraatz (same as 96 Worlds) - Had Rahkamo/Kokko stuck around, they likely would have knocked the Canadians off the podium.
    Last edited by Susan M; 08-23-2013 at 03:56 PM.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    I agree that the mens and ladies podiums at the 94 Olympics wouldn't likely have been affected without the reinstating pros.

    In dance, I think without the threat from T&D, the Russian support would have remained with Usova/Zhulin, which would have gotten them gold. I think the team to move into the medals would have been Rahkamo/Kokko. Maniot/Lavanchy were not really that good and there was a lot of popular sentiment for the Finns, who had a very nice program indeed. So my guess for the dance podium would be
    1 Usova/Zhulin
    2 Grishuk/Platov
    3 Rahkamo/Kokko

    Pairs would have been pretty open. Brasseur & Eisler were current Worlds Champions, but I always thought it was a bit of a sympathy award. Folks felt badly for them for losing to G&G in 1990, then getting totally beaten by M&S at 91 Worlds and 92 Olympics. I think it likely they would have been somewhere on the podium, even if their skating was the antithisis of what most judges liked to see in their pairs champions.

    Top 6 from 93 and 94 Worlds were the same six pairs, and I think the podium would have come from these. I think the top 3 at 94 Worlds would very likely have been the Olympic podium as well. Personally, I would have loved to see Kovarikova/N skate cleanly and take it all, but Radka had grown since their impressive 92 performances and it affected her consistency.

    1 Brasseur/Eisler
    2 Wötzel/Steuer
    3 Shishkova/Naumov
    4 Kovaříková/Novotný
    5 Meno/Sand
    6 Eltsova/Bushkov
    Top 6 at 94 Worlds:
    1 Shishkova/Naumov
    2 Brasseur/Eisler
    3 Eltsova/Bushkov
    4 Wötzel/Steuer
    5 Kovaříková/Novotný
    6 Meno/Sand

    Had there been a 1996 Olympics, my guess podiums would have been:
    .

    You can't be serious. W&S could not even finish their LP in 94 (she got injured in a fall while skating) and they were not even medal contenders. The OGM was really between B&E and S&N. I have already stated my reasons for why I thought S&N were more likely to win. W&S were not a factor until 1996, and their 97 world title was a fluke. The judges did not want to give Y&B two world titles in a row, so it went to W&S even though they made mistakes on both throws. I am not saying Y&B were a great pair or anything like that, but 6th place for them is a bit low.

    I don't know why we are even discussing the "96 Olympics" here. May be there could be a separate thread to discuss that?

  8. #28
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    Woetzel & Stuer won silver at the 93 Worlds behind only B&E and ahead of S&N, and won the Europeans in 95 over all the top pairs who medalled at Worlds that year (where they were 2nd after the short and dropped to 5th after bombing). So they were definitely a factor long before 96, but they were skating terrible the Olympic season and would have been a long shot to medal that year even without the pros. Eltsova & Bushkov or Kovarikova & Novotny (even though they were also skating poorly that season) would have been the only real possabilities for the bronze without the pros. Well very small chance for Meno & Sand since they did skate great at the Olympics, but still very unlikely.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Woetzel & Stuer won silver at the 93 Worlds behind only B&E and ahead of S&N, and won the Europeans in 95 over all the top pairs who medalled at Worlds that year (where they were 2nd after the short and dropped to 5th after bombing). So they were definitely a factor long before 96, but they were skating terrible the Olympic season and would have been a long shot to medal that year even without the pros. Eltsova & Bushkov or Kovarikova & Novotny (even though they were also skating poorly that season) would have been the only real possabilities for the bronze without the pros. Well very small chance for Meno & Sand since they did skate great at the Olympics, but still very unlikely.
    I had forgotten W&S's earlier world silver, so they could have been a factor. I still think K&N were more likely to win the bronze. Y&B, W&S and M&S might have battled for #4. M&S rarely skated well under pressure, so I think the return of the pros actually helped them skater better, without that pressure.

  10. #30
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    I think the pros affected different teams in many ways. As you said M&S skated better feeling they had no chance of a medal, and probably would have struggled if they thought they were contenders. Shishkova & Naumov decided to take the fight and get angry now being knocked down yet again, and they beat both Miskutienok & Dmitriev (at Europeans) and Brasseur & Eisler (at Worlds) that year and had perhaps their best year of skating. Kovarikova & Novotny and Woetzel & Steuer almost seemed to give up with the pros coming back and skating poorly at their early season events, or they might have each been having their own issues that season regardless.

  11. #31
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    Like Susan said too the growth spurt of Radka probably affected them in 93 and 94 too. They began skating better and much more consistently again in the 94-95 season, their final amateur season, when she had stopped growing and she had also gotten used to her new body.

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