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  1. #601
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    Quote Originally Posted by alilou View Post
    I love this quote Zigs. There's a restaurant in Vancouver that has it in huge letters on the outside wall. (I think the author is Margaret Meade.
    Whilst it's definitely something that she could have said, the quote might have been misattributed to her. There's no primary source and the only ones that exist reference each other.

  2. #602

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    Here's One Athlete Who's Not Skating Away From Criticizing Russia's Anti-Gay Law
    http://cognoscenti.wbur.org/2013/10/...pics-e-m-swift
    So far other influential skating voices have been similarly mum on the subject, unlike skier Bode Miller, a four-time Olympian, who called the laws “ignorant” and “embarrassing.” Former skating gold medalists Brian Boitano, Kristi Yamaguchi and Sarah Hughes, all of whom post on Twitter almost daily, have been silent on the anti-gay propaganda laws. Only Johnny Weir, an openly gay skater who competed in two Olympics but never medalled, has spoken out against them. But where are the voices of such heavyweights as Dick Button, Peggy Fleming, and Dorothy Hamill? Or USFSA President Patricia St. Peter?
    Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm - Ralph Waldo Emerson

  3. #603

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    http://www.nomorefearfoundation.org/...l-baryshnikov/
    I think having Russians, famous Russians, speak their mind is really important.

  4. #604

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil-Galad View Post
    http://www.nomorefearfoundation.org/...l-baryshnikov/
    I think having Russians, famous Russians, speak their mind is really important.
    Absolutely. Esteemed Russians speaking out against the law will have the greatest effect. Thank you Baryshnikov!
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  5. #605

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil-Galad View Post
    http://www.nomorefearfoundation.org/...l-baryshnikov/
    I think having Russians, famous Russians, speak their mind is really important.
    I absolutely agree with ever word said by Baryshnikov, and yes it is important for famous Russians to speak out, but it is not enough! Educating the Russian society on gay issues is much more important.

    Most Russians (and I was born in Russia and work in Russia now, although reside outside, and discuss this issue with Russians all the time) believe that being "gay" or "blue" (Russian term) is a personal choice.
    Even those Russians who hold no ill will towards gays in general and could not care less what form of sex takes places in the next house, still are hard to convince otherwise.

    Even many well educated Russians believe being "gay" is a choice, and a young person is very susceptible to "early life influences". If you argue with them, they will tell you the following in support of their believes:
    - Look at ancient Greece/Sparta - where young heterosexual boys were assigned male mentors who taught them all aspects of life and engaged in sexual relationships. Then they all grew up and had wives and families.
    - Look at the ancient world's nobility - they all had sex with young boys not because of "hormones" but as socially accepted "exsautic delicacy", while having wives and children.

    - Look at Lord Byron, David Bowie and a long list of "bohemians" from BC to 2013, who had same-sex relationship to "excitement" and "new experience".

    - Look at Katie Perry - she kissed the girl and she liked it! She is not a lesbian; she just did it for thrills and to appear "cool and exciting" or from being bored kissing boys.

    Then they will tell you: "We don't care what adults do in private, but we DON'T WANT them conditioning and enticing our children into having those new experiences".

    For the record, the law in question is NOT "anti-gay". It is absolutely legal to be "gay" in Russia. Many famous people in Russian entertainment, fashion, art and music industries are "known gays". They dress "gay", live "gay", and have private lives in same-sex relationships. The only thing they do not do, is openly admitted they are "gay" or show up in public with their lovers. A TV-show host was recently fired for admitting to being gay. It is sort of "don't ask, don't tell" situation. It is not a good situation! It is an infringement on one's rights; it causes severe personal distress and many other negative aspects in life.

    But it is nothing compared to Arab/Muslim countries where being gay is ILLEGAL, and punishable by death.

    As a Russian Jew, I remember the times when it was not a good idea to advertise that you're Jewish; it was better to change your "Jewish sounding name" to "a Russian name", not talk about Israel in a positive key, being worried about university admission on quota and getting good job placement as a "super ambitious money grabbing Jew", etc. It was not pleasant! But it was not as bad as being dragged into a gas-chamber or your house burned down, like during pogroms or German occupation.

    When there are countries today who execute their gays, I don't understand why people worry about "don't ask - don't tell" policies in Russia.

    The law is "ban on propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations to minors", which a "sub-law" in a series of laws on "protection of minors and preservation of family". It is a much wider issue addressed by Russian Government – stabilization of Russian Family Values (and elimination of corrupt western values from frivolous all-permitting societies).

    While the law is ambiguous due to lack of clear definitions of key terms such as "propaganda" or "non-traditional", and leads to vicious attacks on gays, the law was not intended to specifically cause violence. Violence against minority groups, of all sorts, is a common practice among certain segments of Russians for many decades. It is very unfortunate that punishments in such cases are poorly enforced. Same people who are prone to violence against "gays", are prone to violence against other minorities or "undesirables", and often same people who practice "dedovchina/violent bulling" in the Russian military, and often are the people with the same frame of mind who back in the "soviet days" used to beat up on "refusinks" and "anti-soviets".

    Such people exist in every part of the world, except that in more democratic western countries they are severely punished, and therefore less likely to act out.

    It is good to fight for human rights, and I always supported gay rights even as young teen in Russia, arguing "what's the difference who they sleep with? Tchaikovsky gave us great music and has a lot more value to Russian society then "natural/straight" Russian Drunkard Ivan".

    But who one fights, how and with what tools is a VERY important issue in itself!

    First I would concentrate on countries where homosexuals’ lives are in danger of government approved executions.

    Second, if Russian situation is the next big concern, Olympics are the least effective venue to “boycott”. There are MANY US and other WESTERN major corporations who invest and hold joint ventures in Russia. Go after Simmons, Boeing, Honeywell, CITI-bank, Lloyds of London, and so on…

    Why go after Olympics when you can attack NASA offices right in your own country for holding joint space projects with the Russians.. (or…. is it not going to work because it is the Americans who need the Russian Space Station?)

    And the most important! Russian Society needs to be EDUCATED first on what homosexuality is about, ALL aspects of it, including “biology factors” AND! family relation-ships, love, emotions, feelings, dynamics of dating and desire to have a fully functioning family.

    So far most Russians I spoke with think that “gay” is “perversion” out of seeking sexual thrills and/or “being corrupted into the kind of thinking as a minor”. They do not see homosexuals as regular people who want love, relationship and family.

    And that is the perception that should be changed first! Because as long as so many Russians believe that homosexuality is “perversion and personal choice” ALL efforts from outside groups will b viewed as attempts to “weaken Russian society” and REJECTED.

    How to do it RIGHT AND UNDERSTANDABLE to the majority of Russians can only be advised by serious and long-time Gary Rights Activists in Russia and abroad.

  6. #606

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    Outspoken Weir Will Be Quiet on Russian Law
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/24/sp...-law.html?_r=0
    Weir is in a complicated position. Some of his gay peers — including his husband, Victor Voronov, a first-generation Russian-American — want him to speak out and “be more on the side of the gay team.” Other have vehemently disagreed with the way he has lived his life, like the way he waited until 2011 to acknowledge publicly that he was gay. Weir is sure that his $20,000 Hermès Birkin bag was recently defaced by another gay man who took a marker to its orange leather and wrote an expletive.
    Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm - Ralph Waldo Emerson

  7. #607

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    Honestly, I think Johnny's stance is the right one for the Olympics. The sheer fact that he'll be going there and being himself and high- profile, will promote tolerance.
    His disagreement with his husband on how to act just highlights all the complexities of the issue. Wonder if Victor is going to Sochi with Johnny.
    And Tinami is right in the fact that even the tolerant Russians are stuck in the early 20th century with the opinion that homosexuality is a "choice". Changing that perception is an absolute necessity, and will go far to change the laws.
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  8. #608
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    The whole point of the new laws is that the effectively prohibit any kind of education about sexual diversity because it would be 'promoting non-traditional relationships.'

  9. #609
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    The whole point of the new laws is that the effectively prohibit any kind of education about sexual diversity because it would be 'promoting non-traditional relationships.'
    First, why do you want to have an access to other people's children and "educate" them about your sexual preference? Second, why do you make such a big fuss when you lost that access to their children?

  10. #610
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    First, why do you want to have an access to other people's children and "educate" them about your sexual preference?
    You think that "gays" go around to schools on a recruitment drive or something?

    Being gay isn't something that just happens to you when you wake up on your eighteenth birthday. It isn't something you're coaxed into by an older man. It isn't something that's the result of some kind of child abuse. It just is.

    I knew I was gay at about twelve years of age. I didn't receive any kind of "information" or "support". I didn't necessarily need it (I was lucky if you will) but I'm sure there are many young people out there who are confused or scared or questioning, who would benefit from some education. In fact, I went on to join a gay youth group at fifteen, which transformed me - for the first time I felt comfortable with those around me, comfortable in my own skin and felt I could finally express myself honestly without fear of the reaction. It shaped me and changed me - for the better. We all want to feel understood and accepted. Yet this is the kind of group I imagine is completely banned in Russia, thanks to this law.

  11. #611

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    First, why do you want to have an access to other people's children and "educate" them about your sexual preference? Second, why do you make such a big fuss when you lost that access to their children?
    I am not speaking for Ziggy, he can do that himself, but even if I am heterosexual, I want all the kids to know that there are other sexual orientations than mine, which also are as normal and accepted as heterosexualism. I have met, even here in liberal Finland, enough young people who are upset because of the heteronormatism.

    Diversity exists. Dear Eyre, just accept it.

  12. #612

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    First, why do you want to have an access to other people's children and "educate" them about your sexual preference? Second, why do you make such a big fuss when you lost that access to their children?
    Thanks for revealing your idiocy. The law prohibits the education of ANYONE about sexual preference. Why do you assume children?

  13. #613

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    First, why do you want to have an access to other people's children and "educate" them about your sexual preference? Second, why do you make such a big fuss when you lost that access to their children?
    SURELY you're joking, as I can't believe your comment could possibly be said in earnest.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  14. #614
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    Quote Originally Posted by siouxdonym View Post
    Thanks for revealing your idiocy. The law prohibits the education of ANYONE about sexual preference. Why do you assume children?
    You have shown yourself the idiotic side. You aren't even clear what the law is all about! What have you been fighting for?!

  15. #615
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinami Amori View Post

    Even many well educated Russians believe being "gay" is a choice, and a young person is very susceptible to "early life influences". If you argue with them, they will tell you the following in support of their believes:
    - Look at ancient Greece/Sparta - where young heterosexual boys were assigned male mentors who taught them all aspects of life and engaged in sexual relationships. Then they all grew up and had wives and families.
    - Look at the ancient world's nobility - they all had sex with young boys not because of "hormones" but as socially accepted "exsautic delicacy", while having wives and children.
    If children were so susceptible to early life influences, they'd be gay their entire lives. Oh, wait, gay people have never gotten married or had children historically, especially upper class gay men who married and procreated for economic and political reasons -- or ballet dancers who were forced to under Soviet times -- and they couldn't possibly still be gay after getting married and having children or pursue extramarital relationships with their own gender.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

  16. #616

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    You have shown yourself the idiotic side. You aren't even clear what the law is all about! What have you been fighting for?!
    The policy reason is to "protect minors". However, the law makes it illegal to hold any sort of public demonstration in favor of gay rights, speak in defense of gay rights and distribute material related to gay rights, or to state that gay relationships are equal to heterosexual relationships.

  17. #617
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loves_Shizuka View Post
    You think that "gays" go around to schools on a recruitment drive or something?
    That has basically what Massachusetts and California of US been doing even to elementary school children as young as 5 and 6 by not just gays but also gay supporters. They have taught the 5 and 6 year olds in school to be open-minded to try "new vegetables".

  18. #618

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    That has basically what Massachusetts and California of US been doing even to elementary school children as young as 5 and 6 by not just gays but also gay supporters. They have taught the 5 and 6 year olds in school to be open-minded to try "new vegetables".
    So Eyre, are you a self-admitted homophobe? I really don't know what else to make of your comments and don't know for sure where you stand on this issue. Please tell us.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  19. #619
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    First, why do you want to have an access to other people's children and "educate" them about your sexual preference? Second, why do you make such a big fuss when you lost that access to their children?
    1. Sexuality is inherent, not taught. No child is going to be "indoctrinated" into homosexuality just because they see a gay pride flag, and no child is going to be "cured" of homosexuality if they're taught that it's evil or nonexistent.
    2. Gay children exist.
    3. Pretending that sexuality is taught and gay children don't exist teaches everyone, gay and straight and in-between, that being gay is wrong, thus increasing the culture of violence and intolerance against people who are gay. That's why it's a fuss...

  20. #620
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    They have taught the 5 and 6 year olds in school to be open-minded to try "new vegetables".
    hardly. Children that young are taught that families come in different configurations, including having two mothers or two fathers. If they are lucky and haven't been molested, most often by a heterosexual person they know, they generally are years away from finding out what sex is physically and being grossed out about it, let alone thinking that their parents or people they like do it or that they ever will, no matter what genders are doing it.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

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