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  1. #381

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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    Maybe you don't understand. They don't believe that they are living in a regime. The famous, rich athletes want to live in Russia..And Russia has a big potential..Many people has money-not only the oligarchs have money, as you think. In Spain on the seaside there are some Russian villages, where the most owners are Russian. Israel, Egypt full of Russian tourists, in my country the hydro-hotels and spas also. In Egypt we can read Russian inscriptions on the street...In London the shops looking for Russian-speaking saleswomen...
    I understood you before but I don't any more. I never said only oligarchs had money in Russia. Actually I said nothing about whether Russians are rich or poor.

    I know Russia has a lot of potential, it is an immense country with many resources and especially tremendous human resources. However, even if every Russian citizen had a mansion in the Spanish Riviera, it would still be wrong for the Russian federation to have an anti-gay law that looks right out of the Hamas Charter. This is wrong according universal human rights principles. Even if 86% of the Russian population supports the law, this doesn't give them the right to oppress the LGBT minority. On the contrary, this is exactly the case in which human rights laws are needed: to protect the minority from the oppression of the majority.

    Economic success doesn't justify the repression of human rights and civil rights.

  2. #382

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Human rights are a western-white-middle-class concept
    If that is true, then the concept of human rights is like the internet. It may have been invented by the western white middle class, but once it is invented there is no going back and everyone gets to use its latest version.

    BTW The Yogyakarta Principles on the Application of International Human Rights Law in relation to Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity are the interpretation of legally binding international treaties as far as discrimination against LGBT people is concerned. This is not a treaty in itself, but an interpretation made at the highest level of competence possible - you can read about it on the site.

    PRINCIPLE 20. The Right to Freedom of Peaceful Assembly and Association

    Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association, including for the purposes of peaceful demonstrations, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity. Persons may form and have recognised, without discrimination, associations based on sexual orientation or gender identity, and associations that distribute information to or about, facilitate communication among, or advocate for the rights of, persons of diverse sexual orientations and gender identities.

    States shall:
    a) Take all necessary legislative, administrative and other measures to ensure the rights to peacefully organise, associate, assemble and advocate around issues of sexual orientation and gender identity, and to obtain legal recognition for such associations and groups, without discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity;
    b) Ensure in particular that notions of public order, public morality, public health and public security are not employed to restrict any exercise of the rights to peaceful assembly and association solely on the basis that it affirms diverse sexual orientations or gender identities;
    c) Under no circumstances impede the exercise of the rights to peaceful assembly and association on grounds relating to sexual orientation or gender identity, and ensure that adequate police and other physical protection against violence or harassment is afforded to persons exercising these rights;
    d) Provide training and awareness-raising programmes to law enforcement authorities and other relevant officials to enable them to provide such protection;
    e) Ensure that information disclosure rules for voluntary associations and groups do not, in practice, have discriminatory effects for such associations and groups addressing issues of sexual orientation or gender identity, or for their members.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy
    By analogy, if the Olympics were in a Muslim, middle-eastern country, I would expect the athletes to respect that country's culture and dress appropriately, even if I personally think that everybody should be able to walk around naked, if they so wish.
    Dear Ziggy, I've known you for more than ten years, so I wish to warn you. If ever my country's islamist government starts passing laws regulating women's attires, just make sure you don't annoy me with such statements about "respecting" our "culture". Otherwise, I'll take you to Antalya in August, dress you up in a long raincoat and hijab and leave you under the sun at 40°C until you get the full "cultural" experience yourself.

  3. #383

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladola View Post
    Some people in this thread are such huge know it alls

    Christ...
    OMG is he on here? What's his board name?
    I guess the hard thing for a lot of people to accept is why God would allow me to go running through their yards, yelling and spinning around.


  4. #384
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    Dear Ziggy, I've known you for more than ten years, so I wish to warn you. If ever my country's islamist government starts passing laws regulating women's attires, just make sure you don't annoy me with such statements about "respecting" our "culture". Otherwise, I'll take you to Antalya in August, dress you up in a long raincoat and hijab and leave you under the sun at 40°C until you get the full "cultural" experience yourself.

    I dont see an "Analogy" either , Because that would be one of many reasons why Olympics wouldn't (And shouldn't) be held in one of those countries

  5. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asli View Post
    I understood you before but I don't any more. I never said only oligarchs had money in Russia. Actually I said nothing about whether Russians are rich or poor.

    I know Russia has a lot of potential, it is an immense country with many resources and especially tremendous human resources. However, even if every Russian citizen had a mansion in the Spanish Riviera, it would still be wrong for the Russian federation to have an anti-gay law that looks right out of the Hamas Charter. This is wrong according universal human rights principles. Even if 86% of the Russian population supports the law, this doesn't give them the right to oppress the LGBT minority. On the contrary, this is exactly the case in which human rights laws are needed: to protect the minority from the oppression of the majority.

    Economic success doesn't justify the repression of human rights and civil rights.
    I just wanted to say maybe the Russians don't want more rights, don't want more freedom, because they feel good in own country. It seems, the foreigners want to fight for Russian's rights and against Putin, not the Russians. I mentioned the oligarchs and the Russian tourists because some posters here believe, that Russia is the Sovietunion even today. But that isn't true. I think the Russians have informations about US and about other western countries, and probably they don't like what they are seeing. Probably they don't like too much the freedom, where the people can do whatever they want, drugs, crime ( I liked when any poster mentioned the Russian maffia, and forgot about own maffia ), sex, alcohol, sprees.. But i know the Russians also have very big social problems( corruption, poverty, underdevelopment in the rural areas etc.) you don't misunderstand me...
    And do you think, if the western world opposes the law, they will change it? You don't forget Russia is political superpower, if they show any weakness, their enemies will think, they have chance against them. They have own terrorists( chechens and others)....
    This is what I'm thinking..

  6. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by lala;3984352[B
    ]I just wanted to say maybe the Russians don't want more rights, don't want more freedom, because they feel good in own country. It seems, the foreigners want to fight for Russian's rights and against Putin, not the Russians.[/B] I mentioned the oligarchs and the Russian tourists because some posters here believe, that Russia is the Sovietunion even today. But that isn't true. I think the Russians have informations about US and about other western countries, and probably they don't like what they are seeing. Probably they don't like too much the freedom, where the people can do whatever they want, drugs, crime ( I liked when any poster mentioned the Russian maffia, and forgot about own maffia ), sex, alcohol, sprees.. But i know the Russians also have very big social problems( corruption, poverty, underdevelopment in the rural areas etc.) you don't misunderstand me...
    And do you think, if the western world opposes the law, they will change it? You don't forget Russia is political superpower, if they show any weakness, their enemies will think, they have chance against them. They have own terrorists( chechens and others)....
    This is what I'm thinking..
    I think was you meant to say was "maybe Russians don't want more rights for others, such as the LGBT community." As near as I can tell, based on reports, the LGBT community in Russia wants the right of freedom of expression. I doubt a significant portion of that 86% that support this law are in fact part of said community.

  7. #387

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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    I think was you meant to say was "maybe Russians don't want more rights for others, such as the LGBT community." As near as I can tell, based on reports, the LGBT community in Russia wants the right of freedom of expression.
    Indeed, if LGBT people did not want the freedom of expressing their identity, parliament would not have felt the need to ban it.

    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    Probably they don't like too much the freedom, where the people can do whatever they want, drugs, crime ( I liked when any poster mentioned the Russian maffia, and forgot about own maffia ), sex, alcohol, sprees.. But i know the Russians also have very big social problems( corruption, poverty, underdevelopment in the rural areas etc.) you don't misunderstand me...
    I am very happy to hear that in Russia there are no problems of drugs, crime or alcoholism, though I'm sorry to hear they have no sex.

    Quote Originally Posted by lala
    And do you think, if the western world opposes the law, they will change it? You don't forget Russia is political superpower, if they show any weakness, their enemies will think, they have chance against them. They have own terrorists( chechens and others)....
    This is what I'm thinking..
    Every country seeks the moral high ground, especially the superpowers. Even Middle Eastern dictators make an effort to look good in front of the world.

  8. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    I just wanted to say maybe the Russians don't want more rights, don't want more freedom, because they feel good in own country. It seems, the foreigners want to fight for Russian's rights and against Putin, not the Russians. I mentioned the oligarchs and the Russian tourists because some posters here believe, that Russia is the Sovietunion even today. But that isn't true. I think the Russians have informations about US and about other western countries, and probably they don't like what they are seeing. Probably they don't like too much the freedom, where the people can do whatever they want, drugs, crime ( I liked when any poster mentioned the Russian maffia, and forgot about own maffia ), sex, alcohol, sprees.. But i know the Russians also have very big social problems( corruption, poverty, underdevelopment in the rural areas etc.) you don't misunderstand me...
    And do you think, if the western world opposes the law, they will change it? You don't forget Russia is political superpower, if they show any weakness, their enemies will think, they have chance against them. They have own terrorists( chechens and others)....
    This is what I'm thinking..
    I think I understand what you're trying to say; however, people's public actions do not always mirror their private thoughts. Russia has been in a big pendulum as it were. The dissolution of the USSR with it's associated decline of Communism led to a free for all as new elements fought to fill that void. Organized religion was repressed for 50 years and has resurged. Free enterprise didn't really work all that well. Organized crime and oligarths filled some of the niches. Some people do think Putin's government will sort things out. Some think Communism was the better option given what happened during the 80s and 90s. But, the reality is there are multiple generations of people within Russia who vote the way they think the government wants them to because they know the consequences can be bad if they don't. So, any statistics, which come from the government, that say what % of the people support the laws, are suspect. Dictators, even in very repressive regimes, are always "loved by the people." Look at the North Koreans. Photo ops turn out crowds crying at the very image of their leader. The majority of people just want to live their lives, raise their children, have enough food to eat and keep their heads down when the bullets (figuratively) fly. They may not have personally had any thing against the LGBT community but voted for the law if they felt it was the expedient thing for them to do. This has happened over and over throughout human history. Those same 80% could very well vote for a law giving the LGBT rights if they felt that was the expedient thing for them to do. We're seeing this in the US in regard to same sex marriage. What has to happen in Russia has to come from within. Those in government who are pushed the law through the legislature have their own agenda. Identifying that agenda and finding a way to circumvent it will allow a change to happen. All the outside protests won't do a thing except make the protestors feel good about themselves for doing something. Good for them. The change in Russian law has to come from within Russia and it won't be the same as it is in the US or western Europe who have an electorate who have not been conditioned to "vote as we tell you." Russia has to overcome over a half a century of this mindset first. It will probably take that long or longer to be different. You have to have an entire generation who thinks differently. We've begun to reach that point in the US regarding same sex legal rights but we're not all the way there yet either.
    Adelina Sotnikova defeated the curse of Esta She is indeed the Greatest Of All Time!

  9. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asli View Post
    Indeed, if LGBT people did not want the freedom of expressing their identity, parliament would not have felt the need to ban it.



    I am very happy to hear that in Russia there are no problems of drugs, crime or alcoholism, though I'm sorry to hear they have no sex.



    Every country seeks the moral high ground, especially the superpowers. Even Middle Eastern dictators make an effort to look good in front of the world.
    you don't want to understand what I wrote.. no matter.

  10. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asli View Post



    I am very happy to hear that in Russia there are no problems of drugs, crime or alcoholism, though I'm sorry to hear they have no sex.


    Russia is one of the few more or less developed nations with a declining life expectancy coupled with a steeply declining birth rate. It ranks #1 in the world in per capita spending on alcohol. It ranks 133 out of 176 on the corruption index, tied with Iran. The gap between rich and poor is enormous and increases every year.

    If Russians think that repressing gays will solve those problems, or that the law somehow distinguishes Russia in a positive sense from those libertine democracies elsewhere...well, let's just say it partially explains how Putin has been so successful in diminishing any pretense to democracy or progress.
    "Youth and vigor is no match for age and deceit." -- Prancer

  11. #391

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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    you don't want to understand what I wrote.. no matter.
    Like my government, you claim that if only people understood you, they would surely agree with you. That is not true in either case.

  12. #392

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asli View Post
    I am very happy to hear that in Russia there are no problems of drugs, crime or alcoholism, though I'm sorry to hear they have no sex.
    I can see why they'd be concerned about the declining birthrate, in that case.

  13. #393
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    I remembered in last year i read in a magazine,-very interesting, and trusty magazine- in US strengthened the neo-Nazi movement in after Obama's inauguration. And thanks to the freedom of speech, the most important aspect of the U.S. Constitution,- they can promote their ideas. The article mentioned Keith Luke, Rush Limbaugh Sean Hannity tv commentators in FOX TV, Curtis Allgiers, and the 10 most important neo-nazi movements, White Aryan Resistance, National Allience, Nazi Low Riders, White Revolution etc.

    How to try to stop them? If they will be stronger I'm sure, they won't leave the gays in peace. They are such a kind of people.

    And I know, Russia has big problem with the alcohol, everybody knows it, I was talking about the behavior of youngs.
    Last edited by lala; 08-31-2013 at 03:20 PM.

  14. #394

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    Lala: the US has laws protecting LGBT folk (like this), just like other minorities. So if individuals or groups target gays, they can be handled by the law. Russia does exactly the opposite: it doesn't protect gay people, it persecutes and discriminates against them legally. Just because bad things happen in the US doesn't mean that they are condoned by any branch of government. I don't know why this distinction isn't clear to you.

    Keith Luke and Curtis Allgier were sentenced to life in prison for their crimes, but while Limbaugh, Hannity et al. are insufferable, they are hardly neo-Nazis. Maybe this magazine is not as trustworthy as you thought?
    Last edited by Zemgirl; 08-31-2013 at 03:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    How to try to stop them? If they will be stronger I'm sure, they won't leave the gays in peace. They are such a kind of people.

    And I know, Russia has big problem with the alcohol, everybody knows it, I was talking about the behavior of youngs.
    Several years ago a young gay man was beaten to death in Wyoming, one of our most rural states. The perpetrators were arrested and convicted. Show me where in Russia people who engaged in anti-gay violence were punished.

    Rush Limbaugh is awful but he doesn't make the laws. More and more states are granting marriage equality and there is a bill pending to insist on equal treatment in the workplace, which if it doesn't pass now will eventually. We have a long history of persecuting gay people like every other country on the planet but we are going in the right direction.

    By every standard of health, American kids are doing better than Russian kids, except perhaps obesity (not sure about that.) European kids are doing even better. There is nothing in this law that is going to protect Russian children from what really will damage them -- growing up in a society that manages to be both authoritarian and lawless at the same time, extraordinarily high alcoholism, divorce and abortion rates, and increasing restriction of everyday freedom.

    Incidentally, our tiny neo-Nazi movements are watched by our police constantly, the few who actually commit violence are quickly arrested and jailed. In Russia, the Nashi movement is sponsored by the government, helped by the police and terrorizes pro-democracy groups and individuals.

    Next?
    "Youth and vigor is no match for age and deceit." -- Prancer

  16. #396
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    Lala, many people from other countries don't understand the US policy of free speech. We allow people with dissenting opinions to speak. Just read some of the PI threads during US elections. It's also not uncommon for extremists to call for shutting down the other side, slandering them, etc., but we don't let that happen. People are free to speak out against LGBT rights, free to vote against them just as people are free to promote them. What they cannot do is harm someone because they are gay. They cannot discriminate against them in the workforce. If they do, they will be punished by law. Does it still happen? Yes. Murder is also illegal and yet someone is murdered every day. But, the law is there to protect and it does work. A few people in this thread have bashed Russia and the Russian people, but most understand that Russia has a rich cultural heritage and the Russian people are just people. You don't really need to defend them any more than it's necessary for some to bash them. And western posters really should try to understand that Russia isn't like their country. It wasn't before 1917 and certainly hasn't been since. I don't know if Russia will write laws offering protected status to LGBT peoples. Many countries don't. In many, it can be a death penalty to be openly gay. But, the world is changing and as more patriarchal cultures do offer protection and equal legal status, there might be a shift. However, it is also probable that there will be backlash against this change. This patriarchal culture is deeply ingrained and won't change easily or at the same rate in all cultures. But, cultural diffusion is a hallmark of human culture and change will occur. That is inevitable.
    Adelina Sotnikova defeated the curse of Esta She is indeed the Greatest Of All Time!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    Lala: the US has laws protesting LGBT folk (like this), just like other minorities. So if individuals or groups target gays, they can be handled by the law. Russia does exactly the opposite: it doesn't protect gay people, it persecutes and discriminates against them legally. Just because bad things happen in the US doesn't mean that they are condoned by any branch of government. I don't know why this distinction isn't clear to you.

    Keith Luke and Curtis Allgier were sentenced to life in prison for their crimes, but while Limbaugh, Hannity et al. are insufferable, they are hardly neo-Nazis. Maybe this magazine is not as trustworthy as you thought?
    Yes, Zemgirl, I understand. I just don't like when some poster believe that their country is the best, they are very impatience, forgetting the big problems in their country. I like some posters who also hate the law, but trying to understand, what are the antecedents, what are the reasons of the law.

    about Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity they exactly wrote: right-wing populist, seditionary kommentators, daily 20 million viewers can reach their hateful words.

    -----
    PRlady and rfisher, your posts...very difficult to understand for me...give me a little time ...
    Last edited by lala; 08-31-2013 at 04:21 PM.

  18. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    Yes, Zemgirl, I understand. I just don't like when some poster believe that their country is the best, they are very impatience, forgetting the big problems in their country. I like some posters who also hate the law, but trying to understand, what are the antecedents, what are the reasons of the law.

    about Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity they exactly wrote: right-wing populist, seditionary kommentators, daily 20 million viewers can reach their hateful words.

    -----
    PRlady and rfisher, your posts...very difficult to understand for me...give me a little time ...
    I'm truly sorry, lala, I didn't take into account difficulty of English. Also I'm sorry for sounding so anti-Russian -- I'm not, I love the culture and particularly the skaters! And believe me, I criticize my own country all the time, and for that matter zemgirl's country too.
    "Youth and vigor is no match for age and deceit." -- Prancer

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    Lala, I think the responses to your post are along the lines of what I wrote, too: there are no perfect countries, and bad things can happen anywhere. The question, are these things the actions of individuals or groups, or are they the actions of the government? There is an important difference between a country where people are punished for attacking or discriminating against minorities (including LGBT folks), and countries where people can get away with such things because they are supported by the government and the law.

    I realize you are not a native speaker of English and that you're making an effort to communicate in what is not your first language. It's important that when you do so, you try to understand what people are trying to convey to you and how your own writing can be interpreted.

    BTW, I'm not sure what exactly a seditionary commentator is, to be honest, but the only label that really fits Limbaugh and Hannity is right wing populists. Disgusting as they can be, they do not deserve to be lumped together with neo-Nazi murderers.

    Quote Originally Posted by PRlady View Post
    I criticize my own country all the time, and for that matter zemgirl's country too.
    We both do

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    Quote Originally Posted by PRlady View Post
    Several years ago a young gay man was beaten to death in Wyoming, one of our most rural states. The perpetrators were arrested and convicted. Show me where in Russia people who engaged in anti-gay violence were punished.

    Rush Limbaugh is awful but he doesn't make the laws. More and more states are granting marriage equality and there is a bill pending to insist on equal treatment in the workplace, which if it doesn't pass now will eventually. We have a long history of persecuting gay people like every other country on the planet but we are going in the right direction.

    By every standard of health, American kids are doing better than Russian kids, except perhaps obesity (not sure about that.) European kids are doing even better. There is nothing in this law that is going to protect Russian children from what really will damage them -- growing up in a society that manages to be both authoritarian and lawless at the same time, extraordinarily high alcoholism, divorce and abortion rates, and increasing restriction of everyday freedom.

    Incidentally, our tiny neo-Nazi movements are watched by our police constantly, the few who actually commit violence are quickly arrested and jailed. In Russia, the Nashi movement is sponsored by the government, helped by the police and terrorizes pro-democracy groups and individuals.

    Next?
    Why are you so sure that this is literally true? Because you could read in your media?

    Quote Originally Posted by rfisher View Post
    Lala, many people from other countries don't understand the US policy of free speech. We allow people with dissenting opinions to speak. Just read some of the PI threads during US elections. It's also not uncommon for extremists to call for shutting down the other side, slandering them, etc., but we don't let that happen. People are free to speak out against LGBT rights, free to vote against them just as people are free to promote them. What they cannot do is harm someone because they are gay. They cannot discriminate against them in the workforce. If they do, they will be punished by law. Does it still happen? Yes. Murder is also illegal and yet someone is murdered every day. But, the law is there to protect and it does work. A few people in this thread have bashed Russia and the Russian people, but most understand that Russia has a rich cultural heritage and the Russian people are just people. You don't really need to defend them any more than it's necessary for some to bash them. And western posters really should try to understand that Russia isn't like their country. It wasn't before 1917 and certainly hasn't been since. I don't know if Russia will write laws offering protected status to LGBT peoples. Many countries don't. In many, it can be a death penalty to be openly gay. But, the world is changing and as more patriarchal cultures do offer protection and equal legal status, there might be a shift. However, it is also probable that there will be backlash against this change. This patriarchal culture is deeply ingrained and won't change easily or at the same rate in all cultures. But, cultural diffusion is a hallmark of human culture and change will occur. That is inevitable.
    You are very wise, I like your post. I hope everything will happen according to your words ... Just need time.
    Last edited by lala; 08-31-2013 at 05:00 PM.

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