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  1. #541
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    One thing is very clear though, the skaters are being told (maybe ordered) by the PTB to not say anything and they (except Gracie) don't quite no how to do that and still answer questions. Of course people are going to criticize them for what they say, but I think its important to keep in mind that the USFSA and USOC are leading this and should be held responsible as well as the individual athletes.
    Congratulations 2014 World Ice Dance Champions Anna Cappellini & Luca Lanotte!!!

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    Some pictures from banner making for the "Eastern Bloc" which is going to show solidarity with non-heteronormative people residing in Russia, during the Wroclaw March for Equality:

    The completed banner says "Putin's lips are sweeter than Lenin's"
    Don't remember what the first one says but the second is "Matrioshkas are also lesbians"
    Me putting a few final touches before mounting them to banner poles

  3. #543
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    I wish Elvis Stojko, aka the masculinity police, would fade into obscurity if his continued presence means re-enforcement of rigid gender norms. Every time I see his comments on gender, my blood boils.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    Bode Miller calls Russian anti-gay law ‘absolutely embarrassing,’ steeped in ignorance - AP article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...716_story.html
    Excerpt:
    Sylvia, thank you so much for posting Bode Miller's critique--it means a lot to read an athlete recognizing that sport and politics are inextricably linked.

    I'm proud of Ashley Wagner. Sigh, I don't know what to say about Jeremy's comments. I think it would be best if stays silent on this matter, because on the two occasions he has spoken about this issue he has made comments that are rather insensitive and dismissive to those who actually face this discrimination. That's to say, his interior decorating analogy undermines the urgency and seriousness of this struggle, imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by manhn View Post
    Isn't that a political statement?
    my thoughts exactly, manhn. And these athletes would beg to differ:

    http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=h...ed=0CEwQ9QEwBA

    I wish she would have chosen her words more carefully, instead expressing that she does not feel that the Olympics are the right venue for her to make a political statement. I am hoping that is what she meant.

    I get that these athletes are in a tough position, but some of them should be more careful about how they express their political apathy. There are a lot of activists in Russia and around the world risking their lives in this struggle.

    And Ziggy, thanks for sharing the photos of the banners! Good luck!

  4. #544
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bournekraatzfan View Post
    And these athletes would beg to differ:

    http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=h...ed=0CEwQ9QEwBA
    They were expelled from the Olympic team and kicked out of the village. They were not stripped of their medals or placements in the official Olympic records, though:

    http://www.olympic.org/content/resul...f1&event=32545

    According to the article about them in Wikipedia, they and silver medalist, Australian Peter Norman, wore Olympic Human Rights Project badges on their jackets. The IOC said the protest was "domestic," but unlike the Nazi salute in Berlin, it was not "national." (You know, like the law in Russia.) Norman was not expelled by the IOC, but according to the Wiki article on Norman,

    Despite Norman running qualifying times for the 100m five times and 200m 13 times during 1971/72, the Australian Olympic track team did not send him, or any other male sprinters, to the 1972 Summer Olympics in Munich, the first modern Olympics since 1896 where no Australian sprinters participated.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

  5. #545
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    They were expelled from the Olympic team and kicked out of the village. They were not stripped of their medals or placements in the official Olympic records, though:

    http://www.olympic.org/content/resul...f1&event=32545
    Yes, i am aware of that. My point is that for these athletes, the Olympics was exactly the right place for them to 'make a political statement', and of course that political statement was deeply personal. And their existence was already politicized...it wasn't something they chose to turn on in the moment, like some of the athletes statements suggest. It is a continuation of a particular politicalidentity in response to an already politicized existence, if that makes sense. To this day, that picture is incredibly impactful.

  6. #546
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bournekraatzfan View Post
    I wish Elvis Stojko, aka the masculinity police, would fade into obscurity if his continued presence means re-enforcement of rigid gender norms. Every time I see his comments on gender, my blood boils.
    What did Elvis say? I guess I'm in need of a good hit of boiling blood
    My travel and adventure blog http://alisonanddon.wordpress.com

  7. #547
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    Shame on D/W. At this point "no comment" would be a more sensible answer.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Some pictures from banner making for the "Eastern Bloc" which is going to show solidarity with non-heteronormative people residing in Russia, during the Wroclaw March for Equality:

    The completed banner says "Putin's lips are sweeter than Lenin's"
    Don't remember what the first one says but the second is "Matrioshkas are also lesbians"
    Me putting a few final touches before mounting them to banner poles

    Omg Ziggy is a... twink???

    I feel old

    *Good on you for being an activist.

  8. #548
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bournekraatzfan View Post
    Yes, i am aware of that. My point is that for these athletes, the Olympics was exactly the right place for them to 'make a political statement', and of course that political statement was deeply personal. And their existence was already politicized...it wasn't something they chose to turn on in the moment, like some of the athletes statements suggest. It is a continuation of a particular politicalidentity in response to an already politicized existence, if that makes sense. To this day, that picture is incredibly impactful.
    It is unlikely that the IOC will treat a protest in Sochi so lightly.

    The 1968 protest had impact. Three athletes decided that the Olympics were the place to make their statement. What they did was not against Mexican law, as far as I know.

    For Smith and Carlos it was a personal protest for a group with whom they identified. For Norman, it was a personal protest for Australian aboriginals whose treatment by his government he objected to. They were willing to sacrifice their athletic careers for issues that were close to their hearts. There were thousands of athletes before and since who either disagreed with them or agreed but were unwilling to make the same protest, on behalf of themselves or others.

    Some US athletes may agree with the law, some may be neutral or uninformed, some may have other issues that are more important to them, some are personally affected by it if they step foot in Sochi, but are unwilling to speak publicly or protest. No US Olympic athlete is obligated to protest the anti-gay laws in Russia, however heinous they might be. I don't think that volunteering other people to speak up and make sacrifices is just.
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 10-03-2013 at 10:04 AM.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

  9. #549

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Some US athletes may agree with the law, some may be neutral or uninformed, some may have other issues that are more important to them, some are personally affected by it if they step foot in Sochi, but are unwilling to speak publicly or protest. No US Olympic athlete is obligated to protest the anti-gay laws in Russia, however heinous they might be. I don't think that volunteering other people to speak up and make sacrifices is just.
    I agree. There is also no right answer for this situation. No matter how one words it, it is going to offend someone somewhere.

  10. #550
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    Quote Originally Posted by dots View Post
    Omg Ziggy is a... twink???
    I'm a twonk. I'm also oooooooold (just don't look it... yet).

    We've uploaded more pics:

    Russian Bloc Stuff
    My favourite banner <3

    And there's great news! FINALLY the city council and the police showed some integrity and they banned the neo-nazis from demonstrating in pretty much the same place and time as us!!!

  11. #551
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    23 gay and lesbian athletes competed in the 2012 London Olympics

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jim-bu...b_1956453.html

  12. #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    It is unlikely that the IOC will treat a protest in Sochi so lightly.

    The 1968 protest had impact. Three athletes decided that the Olympics were the place to make their statement. What they did was not against Mexican law, as far as I know.

    For Smith and Carlos it was a personal protest for a group with whom they identified. For Norman, it was a personal protest for Australian aboriginals whose treatment by his government he objected to. They were willing to sacrifice their athletic careers for issues that were close to their hearts. There were thousands of athletes before and since who either disagreed with them or agreed but were unwilling to make the same protest, on behalf of themselves or others.

    Some US athletes may agree with the law, some may be neutral or uninformed, some may have other issues that are more important to them, some are personally affected by it if they step foot in Sochi, but are unwilling to speak publicly or protest. No US Olympic athlete is obligated to protest the anti-gay laws in Russia, however heinous they might be. I don't think that volunteering other people to speak up and make sacrifices is just.
    Because this topic has had world wide coverage, and most if not all of the NGBs have probably sent out specific "media friendly" statements to their Olympic hopefuls, I think most of the athletes are at least informed and perhaps have an opinion on this topic. Not that they are willing to share it with the media, and quite frankly, as others have stated, this is the current law in Russia, and the IOC has made public statements as to their perspective on the laws currently in place in Russia. As we have all seen, there are those people within the Russian government that do not embrace equal rights for all, and that is such a step backwards in this day and age. Very unsettling. But with that being said....

    If there are athletes that feel strongly and want to make public statements, then do something at home, in their home country to help support LGBT rights. Go out and support getting equal rights legislation passed in their home state/country. Start at home, embrace the cause. I personally don't feel that making a singular political statement surrounding a high profile event like the Olympics is the right course of action. It becomes a flash point, not only for the NGB to deal with but it becomes a distraction for the athlete as well. I have respect for those that dig in and make long term commitments to causes, and get out there and do the daily work that is necessary to help make changes in laws that are unjust.

  13. #553

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    Quote Originally Posted by alilou View Post
    What did Elvis say? I guess I'm in need of a good hit of boiling blood
    I would like to know too. Just because some people prefer more "masculine" programs doesn't make them a gay-hatin' homophobe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CantALoop View Post
    Can you blame her? She's getting no support for speaking against the law from the USOC or IOC, and all US athletes have been pressured to essentially shut up on the subject. Not to mention she has to know that no matter how small the risk, there still is a believable chance she could be sent home without competing or at worst, arrested abroad if she speaks up against the law or supports the LGBTQ community if she goes to Sochi.

    Ashley has bigger balls than Evan and Jeremy combined, and I say this as a fan of Jeremy's skating.
    I love Ashley for speaking out. But please let me point out that she has little chance of acting as if she "advocates homosexuality to minors". For a current gay skater ( actor, architect, director, politician, whatever) to speak out while going to work in Russia is a different, bigger step. I will admire whoever does that tremendously, but I would never demand that of anybody.
    That said, seeing everybody ( except Ashley) on tiptoes is disheartening.
    improving my ballad- like lines

  15. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    No US Olympic athlete is obligated to protest the anti-gay laws in Russia, however heinous they might be. I don't think that volunteering other people to speak up and make sacrifices is just.
    Just to be clear, i never said that these athletes were obligated to protest the laws, nor did i volunteer these athletes to speak up and make sacrifices. I took no issue with Gracie Gold's statement (in fact, hers was one of my favourites). I think it would have been better if some of these athletes had just said "no comment", but they chose to say something more. I suggested they choose their words more carefully. Comparing public objections to this law to criticizing a home's interior or saying that The Olympics isn't the right place for an athlete make a political statement is not the same as simply choosing not to speak up.

  16. #556
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    Quote Originally Posted by alilou View Post
    What did Elvis say? I guess I'm in need of a good hit of boiling blood
    Quote Originally Posted by manhn View Post
    I would like to know too. Just because some people prefer more "masculine" programs doesn't make them a gay-hatin' homophobe.
    Sorry, i should have linked to the post i was responding to. Elvis's words were reiterated in an interview with Chris Mabee. Elvis said that a very lyrical and/or soft style of skating is not men's skating. I don't think he should get to decide what constitutes men's skating for everyone. I like Mabee's answer, calling or a more fluid definition of men's skating. Here is the post (thanks sadya):
    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...=1#post4005673

    Quote Originally Posted by dinakt View Post
    I love Ashley for speaking out. But please let me point out that she has little chance of acting as if she "advocates homosexuality to minors". For a current gay skater ( actor, architect, director, politician, whatever) to speak out while going to work in Russia is a different, bigger step. I will admire whoever does that tremendously, but I would never demand that of anybody.
    This.


    Quote Originally Posted by B.Cooper View Post
    .
    I have respect for those that dig in and make long term commitments to causes, and get out there and do the daily work that is necessary to help make changes in laws that are unjust.
    And this.
    Last edited by Bournekraatzfan; 10-03-2013 at 07:33 PM. Reason: Proper link to post.

  17. #557
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    I'm a twonk. I'm also oooooooold (just don't look it... yet).

    We've uploaded more pics:

    Russian Bloc Stuff
    My favourite banner <3

    And there's great news! FINALLY the city council and the police showed some integrity and they banned the neo-nazis from demonstrating in pretty much the same place and time as us!!!

    Great news, Ziggy!

  18. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinakt View Post
    I love Ashley for speaking out. But please let me point out that she has little chance of acting as if she "advocates homosexuality to minors". For a current gay skater ( actor, architect, director, politician, whatever) to speak out while going to work in Russia is a different, bigger step. I will admire whoever does that tremendously, but I would never demand that of anybody.
    That said, seeing everybody ( except Ashley) on tiptoes is disheartening.
    I thought the law was so loose that even speaking for equal rights is considered propaganda. But I agree Ashley's risk of retribution is small, but it's definitely not impossible.

    I also agree that gay skaters or athletes shouldn't have to come out or outright condemn the law, I'm just appalled at how amazingly disingenuous the responses were and how some skaters were trying so hard to convince us that they don't see the elephant in the room:

    Lysacek: "You'll have to ask the USOC if there's any elephants. They're there to protect us from wild animals."
    Abbott: "Ugh I HATE elephants, but it's not my place to tell them that ivory is SO last century, not to mention illegal."
    Zawadzki: "Who cares about elephants? There aren't any animals competing at the Olympics."
    Davis & White: "You know, this is the first time we've ever thought about elephants. We need to talk about this together before we'll tell you if there's an elephant here."

  19. #559
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bournekraatzfan View Post
    Sorry, i should have linked to the post i was responding to. Elvis's words were reiterated in an interview with Chris Mabee. Elvis said that a very lyrical and/or soft style of skating is not men's skating. I don't think he should get to decide what constitutes men's skating for everyone. I like Mabee's answer, calling or a more fluid definition of men's skating.
    Oh Elvis. Here's a very simple formula I use to define men's skating: 1. Is there a single man on the ice? 2. Is he skating? If the answer to 1 and 2 are both yes, then I am watching men's skating. The end.

  20. #560
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    Quote Originally Posted by CantALoop View Post
    I thought the law was so loose that even speaking for equal rights is considered propaganda. But I agree Ashley's risk of retribution is small, but it's definitely not impossible.

    I also agree that gay skaters or athletes shouldn't have to come out or outright condemn the law, I'm just appalled at how amazingly disingenuous the responses were and how some skaters were trying so hard to convince us that they don't see the elephant in the room:

    Lysacek: "You'll have to ask the USOC if there's any elephants. They're there to protect us from wild animals."
    Abbott: "Ugh I HATE elephants, but it's not my place to tell them that ivory is SO last century, not to mention illegal."
    Zawadzki: "Who cares about elephants? There aren't any animals competing at the Olympics."
    Davis & White: "You know, this is the first time we've ever thought about elephants. We need to talk about this together before we'll tell you if there's an elephant here."
    That was funny. Thank you for the laugh.

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